Murtha Believes Iraq is Civil War/will be

[mrbowler]

Came across this article..It does sound that Newt supports a similiar position to what Murtha proposed earlier?

Ex-House speaker says U.S. made "enormous mistake" in occupation:

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Newt Gingrich, the former Republican Speaker of the House, told students and faculty at the University of South Dakota Monday that the United States should pull out of Iraq and leave a small force there, just as it did post-war in Korea and Germany.

"It was an enormous mistake for us to try to occupy that country after June of 2003," Gingrich said during a question-and-answer session at the school. "We have to pull back, and we have to recognize it."

[Rainmaker]

Military officials Thursday said a criminal investigation into a firefight in western Iraq that left at least 15 civilians dead is not complete, but they did not dispute a congressman's charges that the attack by Marines was far worse than originally reported.

Officials in the Pentagon and at U.S. Central Command declined to say whether Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., was correct in saying that Marines killed innocent women and children "in cold blood" during the attacks last November. Murtha said U.S. troops overreacted and that nearly twice as many people were killed than first reported.

Time magazine reported in March that an Iraqi civil rights group said Marines barged into houses near a bomb strike in Haditha, Iraq, throwing grenades and shooting civilians.

Murtha told reporters Wednesday, "It’s much worse than was reported in Time magazine," according to the Army Times newspaper.


"There was no firefight. There was no [bomb] that killed those innocent people," Murtha said in the Army Times report.

"There is an ongoing investigation, therefore any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process," said Marine Lt. Col. Sean D. Gibson, spokesman for the Marine element of U.S. Central Command.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said he would not comment on the veracity of Murtha's remarks, but said individuals will be held accountable if it is determined they did something wrong. He added that U.S. troops "are facing a host of enemies in a tough and challenging environment every day."

A criminal probe into the firefight in the western town of Haditha is being conducted by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Whitman said its not clear when the investigation will be completed.

About a dozen Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, are being investigated for war crimes in connection with the firefight to determine if they violated the rules of military engagement.

Murtha, a former Marine and veteran of combat in Vietnam, has been a consistent ally of the armed forces as a member of Congress. He has called in recent months for a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq.

He said combat stress prompted the Marines’ alleged rampage, according to the Army Times report.

"It’s a very serious incident, unfortunately. It shows the tremendous pressure that these guys are under every day when they’re out in combat," he was reported as saying. "One man was killed with an [improvised explosive device] and after that they actually went into the houses and killed women and children."

A videotape taken by an Iraqi shows the aftermath of the alleged Haditha attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after Haditha residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a Marine.

Defense officials announced last month that three Marines from the 3rd Battalion were relieved of their commands in connection with problems during their deployment to Iraq. Gibson said it would be inappropriate to link their reassignments to the Haditha incident.

The three were reassigned to new duties within the division because of a lack of confidence in their leadership abilities, officials said at the time.

[katlnhats]

I think we'll be out of Iraq, unless something else happens to dictate our being there - whoever wins the Presidential race will probably pull our troops out ASAP; it's very unpopular to keep them there with much of America and it's bound to come up in the debates.

Kat

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by katlnhats

I think we'll be out of Iraq, unless something else happens to dictate our being there - whoever wins the Presidential race will probably pull our troops out ASAP; it's very unpopular to keep them there with much of America and it's bound to come up in the debates.

Kat

Good chance we will always be in Iraq, but I think you meant the majority of troops. Bush has already stated that the next president will be responsible.

Iraqis Think U.S. in Their Nation to Stay:
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"The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, and other U.S. officials disavow any desire for permanent bases. But long-term access, as at other U.S. bases abroad, is different from "permanent," and the official U.S. position is carefully worded."

Bush: Troops to Stay in Iraq Through '08:

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"President Bush said Tuesday that American forces will remain in Iraq for years and it will be up to a future president to decide when to bring them all home."

[mrbowler]

Almost forgot about Mega-Embassy in Iraq

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BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The fortress-like compound rising beside the Tigris River here will be the largest of its kind in the world, the size of Vatican City, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq's turbulent future.

The new U.S. Embassy also seems as cloaked in secrecy as the ministate in Rome.

"We can't talk about it. Security reasons," Roberta Rossi, a spokeswoman at the current embassy, said when asked for information about the project.

A British tabloid even told readers the location was being kept secret - news that would surprise Baghdadis who for months have watched the forest of construction cranes at work across the winding Tigris, at the very center of their city and within easy mortar range of anti-U.S. forces in the capital, though fewer explode there these days.




The embassy complex - 21 buildings on 104 acres, according to a U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee report - is taking shape on riverside parkland in the fortified "Green Zone," just east of al-Samoud, a former palace of Saddam Hussein's, and across the road from the building where the ex-dictator is now on trial.

The Republican Palace, where U.S. Embassy functions are temporarily housed in cubicles among the chandelier-hung rooms, is less than a mile away in the 4-square-mile zone, an enclave of American and Iraqi government offices and lodgings ringed by miles of concrete barriers.

The 5,500 Americans and Iraqis working at the embassy, almost half listed as security, are far more numerous than at any other U.S. mission worldwide. They rarely venture out into the "Red Zone," that is, violence-torn Iraq.

This huge American contingent at the center of power has drawn criticism

"The presence of a massive U.S. embassy - by far the largest in the world - co-located in the Green Zone with the Iraqi government is seen by Iraqis as an indication of who actually exercises power in their country," the International Crisis Group, a European-based research group, said in one of its periodic reports on Iraq.

State Department spokesman Justin Higgins defended the size of the embassy, old and new, saying it's indicative of the work facing the United States here.

"It's somewhat self-evident that there's going to be a fairly sizable commitment to Iraq by the U.S. government in all forms for several years," he said in Washington.

Higgins noted that large numbers of non-diplomats work at the mission - hundreds of military personnel and dozens of FBI agents, for example, along with representatives of the Agriculture, Commerce and other U.S. federal departments.

They sleep in hundreds of trailers or "containerized" quarters scattered around the Green Zone. But next year embassy staff will move into six apartment buildings in the new complex, which has been under construction since mid-2005 with a target completion date of June 2007.

Iraq's interim government transferred the land to U.S. ownership in October 2004, under an agreement whose terms were not disclosed.

"Embassy Baghdad" will dwarf new U.S. embassies elsewhere, projects that typically cover 10 acres. The embassy's 104 acres is six times larger than the United Nations compound in New York, and two-thirds the acreage of Washington's National Mall.

Original cost estimates ranged over $1 billion, but Congress appropriated only $592 million in the emergency Iraq budget adopted last year. Most has gone to a Kuwait builder, First Kuwaiti Trading & Contracting, with the rest awarded to six contractors working on the project's "classified" portion - the actual embassy offices.

Higgins declined to identify those builders, citing security reasons, but said five were American companies.

The designs aren't publicly available, but the Senate report makes clear it will be a self-sufficient and "hardened" domain, to function in the midst of Baghdad power outages, water shortages and continuing turmoil.

It will have its own water wells, electricity plant and wastewaster-treatment facility, "systems to allow 100 percent independence from city utilities," says the report, the most authoritative open source on the embassy plans.

Besides two major diplomatic office buildings, homes for the ambassador and his deputy, and the apartment buildings for staff, the compound will offer a swimming pool, gym, commissary, food court and American Club, all housed in a recreation building.

Security, overseen by U.S. Marines, will be extraordinary: setbacks and perimeter no-go areas that will be especially deep, structures reinforced to 2.5-times the standard, and five high-security entrances, plus an emergency entrance-exit, the Senate report says.

Higgins said the work, under way on all parts of the project, is more than one-third complete.

[katlnhats]

Reply to your last post - in one word - Excellent!

Kat

[katlnhats]

Originally Posted by mrbowler

Good chance we will always be in Iraq, but I think you meant the majority of troops. Bush has already stated that the next president will be responsible.

Iraqis Think U.S. in Their Nation to Stay:
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"The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, and other U.S. officials disavow any desire for permanent bases. But long-term access, as at other U.S. bases abroad, is different from "permanent," and the official U.S. position is carefully worded."

Bush: Troops to Stay in Iraq Through '08:

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"President Bush said Tuesday that American forces will remain in Iraq for years and it will be up to a future president to decide when to bring them all home."

Yes, I did mean the majority of the troops. And since we're also in Iran and Turkey where we have our airforce base (in Ankara), we'll be there too, as we've been since this all started.

Kat

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by katlnhats

Reply to your last post - in one word - Excellent!

Kat

Why Thank You...Had to do a little digging to find that one...

If you get real bored-reconstruction progress report from Iraq

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[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by katlnhats

Yes, I did mean the majority of the troops. And since we're also in Iran and Turkey where we have our airforce base (in Ankara), we'll be there too, as we've been since this all started.

Kat

Can you clarify in Iran? TIA

[katlnhats]

Originally Posted by mrbowler

Can you clarify in Iran? TIA

You know, I actually can't clarify Iran. One of our friends sons just got sent there and also our sons friends (a married couple) have both been sent there at separate times as well as Iraq. They don't really talk about it though. I just know our military is there as these are new deployments.

Kat

[katlnhats]

Originally Posted by mrbowler

Why Thank You...Had to do a little digging to find that one...

If you get real bored-reconstruction progress report from Iraq

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OK, I wasn't bored, but I like the articles you find. Didn't surprise me as I've heard some of this from a good friend who lives in Turkey (retired American military person), and I get periodic e-mails from him.

Kat

[mrbowler]

Getting closer to leaving? Wish we could get a opinion from every soldier.


Troops echo frustration over war in Iraq:

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While Staff Sgt. Randy Myers was dodging roadside bombs in Iraq, his congressman was calling the war a lost cause.

Sixteen-term Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), a decorated Vietnam veteran and military hawk, has become the face of the Democrats' anti-war movement since he called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops last fall. His oft-repeated criticism of the Bush administration's war policies also has earned him the wrath of Republicans.

In Murtha's southwest Pennsylvania district, however, many share the war critic's views.

At a welcome home ceremony this week for Myers and other troops from the Johnstown, Pa.-based 876th Engineer Battalion, the crowd cheered when a Murtha aide welcomed the troops on the congressman's behalf.

Myers said he backs Murtha, an opinion echoed by a number of other troops and their families. Several share his frustration with the conflict.

"I'm not sure we're doing a whole lot of good," Myers, 46, said of the U.S. presence in Iraq. "Everybody thinks we are. We're trying to, but we're not going to change what they want to do, and if they don't want to change, they're not gonna."

Said Sgt. 1st Class George Wozniak, 36, of Murtha: "He's definitely for a strong military and he definitely supports the troops."

Patriotism runs deep in Murtha's district in the Allegheny Mountains, where joining the military is a family tradition and often an economic necessity. Many served in Vietnam and that war exacted a heavy toll, with Allegheny County losing 421 men and Washington County, part of Murtha's district, losing 67. Memorials to those killed are scattered throughout the towns and cities of western Pennsylvania.

Not far from Johnstown was the setting for the Oscar-winning 1978 movie "The Deer Hunter," which explored the impact of Vietnam on the young men of an industrial town.

Doubts about Iraq have surfaced in the region. A Quinnipiac University Poll released Wednesday found that 25 percent in southwest Pennsylvania said all troops should be withdrawn from Iraq, while 38 percent in Pittsburgh and its surrounding suburbs said they should all be withdrawn.

The battalion was part of the Pennsylvania National Guard's 2nd Brigade Combat Team, the largest group of the state's Guard troops to fight in a combat zone since World War II. The approximately 2,000 troops were based in Anbar Province, one of the most dangerous sections of Iraq. Fifteen Pennsylvania troops from the brigade were killed during the deployment.

"I would like them out of there," said Bonnie Shable, 53, whose husband, Army Sgt. 1st Class James Shable, served in Vietnam and Iraq and returned home with the battalion this week. "I think we've done what we're going to do over there and it's time for everybody to come home."

Divisions over the war and a timetable for pulling out U.S. forces have roiled the Democrats. Republicans, looking to capitalize on the issue in an election year, have accused Democratic critics such as Murtha of espousing a "cut-and-run" approach, hoping the argument will resonate with voters.

His criticism has angered some in the district. Unopposed in 2004, Murtha has a GOP rival this time — Diana Irey, a Washington County commissioner.

Ruth Ann Biesinger-Sliko, 55, a physical education teacher who came to see a fellow teacher and six of her former students return from Iraq, said Murtha has lost her vote because of his negativity about the war.

"I think that makes the guys feel terrible when he starts, you know, bashing. I think you need to support the guys," Biesinger-Sliko said. "I think it's created a lot of bad feelings for the people whose families are over there."

Vice President Dick Cheney and White House adviser Karl Rove have assailed the congressman, with Bush's political adviser saying Democrats like Murtha "may be with you at the first shots, but they are not going to be there for the last tough battles."

Murtha, a Marine who did two tours in Vietnam, fired back. "He's making a political speech. He's sitting in his air-conditioned office with his big, fat backside, saying, 'Stay the course.' That's not a plan," Murtha said of Rove on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Murtha remains popular in his district, in large part because of the federal dollars he has delivered. The homecoming ceremony this week was at an armory on a hillside dubbed "Fort Murtha" because of that largesse. Next to the armory is the John P. Murtha Airport, which is a few miles from the John P. Murtha Neuroscience and Pain Institute.

"I just believe everything he says is very true," said Cindy Saylor, 49, whose 19-year-old son was among those who returned home. "I think we need to get out of there. People are getting killed needlessly."

Not everyone in the district is happy with Murtha's outspokenness or higher political profile. The congressman has said if Democrats capture control of the House, he will seek the job of majority leader. Murtha also plans to speak at Democratic meetings in New Hampshire and Florida in the next few weeks.

A banner proclaiming, "Welcome Home Soldiers: Got-R-Done," greeted the troops when they returned. Many of the soldiers declined to be interviewed. Or, when asked about Murtha, said they didn't know enough to have an opinion.

Tom Geiger, a 79-year-old World War II veteran, said he thinks Murtha is "50 percent right and 50 percent wrong."

"Maybe they should have searched a little bit more" for weapons of mass destruction, Geiger said. "But once you're into it, you're stuck with it."

[katlnhats]

Hi,

Interesting article, especially since Murtha served two terms in Vietnam. That was a very unpopular; well, we didn't call it war, but still.
It's hard as I agree we should get most of our troops out of there and at the same time, don't want to offend or hurt any of the many American soldiers who are currently there, nor their families, who have enough to worry about.
Those who fought in WWII came home as heroes - those who fought in Vietnam (and they were both following orders from our country), came home with no fanfare or appreciation.
Now we have this "war on terror", and we're in Iraq, among other places and no matter how I personally feel about this war, the troops were still doing what they were told to the best of their ability, and they should be treated as such. I think they are, at this point, but who knows what the future holds. I hope nobody gets the reception that the Vietnam people did...

Kat

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by katlnhats

It's hard as I agree we should get most of our troops out of there

Kat

I hope that we are getting closer to pulling troops out of Iraq, but at the same time I don't want the current administration/republicans to come back later, and play the blame game if things go down the tubes in Iraq(Civil War).
So we continue to play the wait game that we will stand down-when the Iraqis are able to stand up. At some point soon( 6 months-1year) enough people will demand accountability either positive/negative.

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by mrbowler

Does the U.S. need more troops or need to allocate them differently in order to secure the borders so that this does not happen or reduce the amount? I believe this is what McCain was talking about, and the need for more troops.
I would guess that Rumsfeld put this out to strengthen the case against military action against Iran further down the road.


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"Raising a new complaint about Iran, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday accused Tehran of dispatching elements of its Revolutionary Guard to stir trouble inside Iraq."

"He initially said the infiltrators were doing "things that are harmful to the future of Iraq," but later when asked specifically whether they were gathering intelligence or fomenting violence Rumsfeld said he did not know what their mission was."

Saw this article-makes you wonder whether this is being said to enforce case for attacking Iran....If not-then why haven't we been able to eliminate these infiltrators?? So do we need more troops??

General: Iran Planting Bombs In Iraq:

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"According to the United States' commanding general in Iraq, Iran has joined the war. Gen. George Casey said Iranians are planting roadside bombs that are killing U.S. soldiers, reports CBS News correspondent Lee Cowan.

"We are quite confident that the Iranians through their covert special ops forces are providing weapons, IED technology and training to Shia extremist groups in Iraq," Casey said at a Pentagon press conference with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld by his side.

Casey went so far as to accuse the Iranian government of helping mastermind the attacks."