Senator Frist in Hot Water

[trust no one]

WASHINGTON - In the wake of the Terri Schiavo autopsy, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican, has come under renewed fire for his past questioning of her doctors' dire assessment of her medical condition, based on his own review of a videotape.

Frist, a surgeon, denied yesterday that he had contradicted doctors who said the disabled Florida woman was in a "persistent vegetative state" before her feeding tube was withdrawn in March. She died in April.

"I never made the diagnosis, " Frist said. "I wouldn't even attempt to make a diagnosis based on a videotape." But Democratic political operatives, anticipating that Frist might try to run for president in 2008, circulated transcripts of his statements in March that clearly questioned her doctors' diagnosis based on his review of video footage of Schiavo.

"That footage, to me, depicted something very different than persistent vegetative state," Frist said at the time.

Frist made the comments as he and other GOP leaders pushed Congress in March to approve a bill that aimed, in vain, to prolong Schiavo's life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal court.

Frist's statements during debate on that bill had drawn criticism then from medical professionals, and he had previously insisted his remarks did not represent a diagnosis. But he came under fresh scrutiny after the release of Schiavo's autopsy Wednesday showed she suffered from irreversible brain damage.

The additional finding that she was blind refuted Frist's judgment after his review of the videotape that "she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli." But in an interview on the Today show yesterday, Frist insisted, "I never said she responded."

The Schiavo matter could prove troublesome to Frist in a future presidential campaign if opponents use it to raise questions about his credibility.

"It is never good when you say you didn't do something when you are on camera doing it," said Tony Fabrizio, a Republican political strategist. Frist's adversaries, Fabrizio predicted, "will use it time and time again."
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Editorial comment

Should Senator Frist have his public comments and actions reviewed by the medical ethics board? It certainly seems medically irresponsible and professionally dishonorable for a doctor to second-guess publicly the diagnosis of other doctors with only a one-hour videotape as the basis for the critique.

At the least, he should apologize to the hard working doctors who, without a full review, had their reputation and their assessments publicly questioned. We don’t need doctors in this country who rely on incomplete data as a basis for making ardent decisions.

[telos2000]

What we don't need is wordsmiths who craft their own answers out of other peoples' words. Do the words "to me" and "she certainly seems to" mean a diagnosis or an opinion. Would you (plural) gag every politician in such a manner, or is it just those who oppose your (plural) point of view? This great nation has been transformed from a democracy into a country dominated by the spin-masters. Despicable!

[trust no one]

Originally Posted by telos2000

What we don't need is wordsmiths who craft their own answers out of other peoples' words. Do the words "to me" and "she certainly seems to" mean a diagnosis or an opinion. Would you (plural) gag every politician in such a manner, or is it just those who oppose your (plural) point of view? This great nation has been transformed from a democracy into a country dominated by the spin-masters. Despicable!

You are right. His opinion was that of a doctor. He approached the situation as being a doctor, with a doctor’s judgment. His judgement, as he wanted it, was that of a doctor. Being a licensed doctor, he is subject to the laws, and peer reviews therein. He should be held accountable for his public opinionated medical review and the system that allowed that assessment. Senator Frist is now playing games; shame on him for trying to equivocate now.

[telos2000]

Originally Posted by trust no one

You are right. His opinion was that of a doctor. He approached the situation as being a doctor, with a doctor’s judgment. His judgement, as he wanted it, was that of a doctor. Being a licensed doctor, he is subject to the laws, and peer reviews therein. He should be held accountable for his public opinionated medical review and the system that allowed that assessment. Senator Frist is now playing games; shame on him for trying to equivocate now.

What makes you say that his opinion was that of a doctor and not a senator? Where did you gain that insight? If a senator, who happens to be a doctor, cannot state his opinion on a medical issue, then wouldn't this hold true to the other professions also. Say, a lawyer and the law or CPA and financial concerns? That is obsurd! Does the senator not have the right, no, the resonsiblility to represent his/her constituents in ALL matters? Isn't that why he was elected? Where does it state that a doctor cannot be a lawmaker unless he keeps his opinions on medical issues to himself? That is a ridiculous and inane arguement! Shame on those who are trying to take his responsibilities, rights and privileges as a elected official away from him.

[bobbcat]

Being quite intimate with the proper formatting of a diagnosis from years as a nurse and now a medical transcriptionist, terms such as 'seems' and '...to me..' to not appear with a diagnosis. Senator Frist did not diagnose Terri Shiavo's condition. Criticizing him in that manner is rather specious, TNO.

By the way, TNO, where is your outrage in response to Dick Durbin's seditious commentary about the US military. I think that Telos' assessment here is right on the money.

[trust no one]

Originally Posted by telos2000

What makes you say that his opinion was that of a doctor and not a senator? Where did you gain that insight? If a senator, who happnes to be a doctor, cannot state his opinion on a medical issue, then wouldn't this hold true to the other professions also. Say, a lawyer and the law or CPA and financial concerns? That is obsurd!

He took the Hippocratic oath (“In a pure and holy way:" Personal and Professional Conduct), so he was speaking as a doctor.

“And about whatever I may see or hear in treatment, or even without treatment, in the life of human beings -- things that should not ever be blurted out outside --I will remain silent, holding such things to be unutterable [sacred, not to be divulged],

i. a. If I render this oath fulfilled, and if I do not blur and confound it [making it to no effect]”

He made a medical evaluation, let that evaluation be reviewed, in its entirety, by his medical peers.

[trust no one]

Originally Posted by bobbcat

Being quite intimate with the proper formatting of a diagnosis from years as a nurse and now a medical transcriptionist, terms such as 'seems' and '...to me..' to not appear with a diagnosis. Senator Frist did not diagnose Terri Shiavo's condition. Criticizing him in that manner is rather specious, TNO.

By the way, TNO, where is your outrage in response to Dick Durbin's seditious commentary about the US military. I think that Telos' assessment here is right on the money.

So, what you are saying is, as a doctor, he should have kept his mouth shut?
You are right; you addressed the issue head on.

Regarding Durbin, its all talk radio or Fox News propaganda uber-hype. As we now know after the Schiavo debacle, Fox News and talk radio, (Rush, Sean, O'Reilly, Snow, and Liddy), are not, and should not, be considered "news." They all fragment and manufacture topics to create hype. Please don't go by what they say, you will only be getting a sensationalized scraps of the real story.

[bobbcat]

I saw the video of Durbin's remarks, TNO. I did not need Hannity, Rush, etc., to decipher for me the fact that this man made seditious comments. He should step down. Actually, IMHO, he should face charges for sedition and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. In a different era, he would be.

[CagedTroll]

Okay, but you're saying the FBI agent who filed the report Durbin quoted, and those "Americans" (in name only, IMHO) who tortured detainees should get a free-pass???

Because regardless of Durbin's statements, the detainees that have thus far been released (and there's been a lot of them) are already spreading stories at home (for almost a year now) about their treatment at G'itmo. Those stories haven't made the English-only speaking press, till now.

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[telos2000]

Originally Posted by trust no one

So, what you are saying is, as a doctor, he should have kept his mouth shut?
You are right; you addressed the issue head on.

Regarding Durbin, its all talk radio or Fox News propaganda uber-hype. As we now know after the Schiavo debacle, Fox News and talk radio, (Rush, Sean, O'Reilly, Snow, and Liddy), are not, and should not, be considered "news." They all fragment and manufacture topics to create hype. Please don't go by what they say, you will only be getting a sensationalized scraps of the real story.

You hit the nail on the head. I don't go by what they for the very reason I don't go by what you say. All I am getting here is "sensationalized scraps of the real story."

[trust no one]

Bobcat,

Thanks for turning a thread about medical ethics into Democrat bashing. Where is a mod when you need one?


Posted by Telos2000
"If a senator, who happens to be a doctor, cannot state his opinion on a medical issue, then wouldn't this hold true to the other professions also[?]"

Response, Yes, Lawyers get disbarred for violations of ethics. CPA's can get their license yanked for ethical violations. With profound knowledge and public, government, and professional trust in all these professions, comes increased responsibility for the trustee of this knowledge. Dr. Frist has profound medical knowledge, he comments can only be accepted as coming from a doctor.

Posted by Telos2000
"Where does it state that a doctor cannot be a lawmaker unless he keeps his opinions on medical issues to himself?"
Response, The answer to your question is, of course, the Hippocratic Oath. It is very clear on this issue of divulging a patient's medical situation openly. There is also a part that is lucid on not divulging medical comments on patients that are not your own.

Posted by Telos2000
"Shame on those who are trying to take his responsibilities, rights and privileges as a elected official away from him."
Response; As a Senator, he did nothing wrong in stating his "opinion." But as a Doctor, by commenting publicly, it appears he violated his Hippocratic Oath (It is on videotape and everything!). Here is why it appears he was unethical;

A) Dr. Frist did not have the necessary records, and he did not examine the patient, before openly questioning other doctors diagnosis.
B) Dr. Frist questioning fellow doctors' patient diagnosis, publicly, without seeing the patient, goes against his Hippocratic Oath.

Now, I was very clear a medical ethics board, not the Congressional Ethics Committee should look into this violation. How does a medical peer review into his comments and actions "take his responsibilities, rights and privileges as a elected official away from him," as you say?

I believe he knew, as a doctor, he crossed the line after he spoke those words.

[bobbcat]

Thanks for turning a thread about medical ethics into Democrat bashing. Where is a mod when you need one?

What are you suggesting, that I be banned or something? Why not ditch the chip and engage in what I see as a reasonable argument here. You are trying to make a point about ethics and how Frist has overstepped the line. My point was to illustrate 2 things. First, that Frist was not out of bounds for merely offering an opinion, not a diagnosis. Secondly, I was illustrating your obvious display of a double standard by making a big deal about what Frist had done while completely ignoring what Durbin had to say, which was far more agregious. It is as plain as anyone's nose on their face that you are quite biased, rather unabashedly so, I might add.

[trust no one]

Originally Posted by bobbcat

What are you suggesting, that I be banned or something? Why not ditch the chip and engage in what I see as a reasonable argument here. You are trying to make a point about ethics and how Frist has overstepped the line. My point was to illustrate 2 things. First, that Frist was not out of bounds for merely offering an opinion, not a diagnosis. Secondly, I was illustrating your obvious display of a double standard by making a big deal about what Frist had done while completely ignoring what Durbin had to say, which was far more agregious. It is as plain as anyone's nose on their face that you are quite biased, rather unabashedly so, I might add.

Being in the medical field, you should be familiar with the Hippocratic oath; doctors aren't allowed to publicly offer medical "opinions" of their patients or non-patients.

“And about whatever I may see or hear in treatment, or even without treatment, in the life of human beings -- things that should not ever be blurted out outside --I will remain silent, holding such things to be unutterable [sacred, not to be divulged],

i. a. If I render this oath fulfilled, and if I do not blur and confound it [making it to no effect]”


I am sorry, is Senator Durbin a medical doctor who violated his Hippocratic oath?

[bobbcat]

No he is not, and neither is Frist. Again, I stand by my assertion that Frist was not acting the role as a doctor when he offered his opinion regarding Shiavo's condition. He was functioning in the role as a senator.

Interesting how you continue to harp on this rather irrelevant issue (what Frist said about a now dead woman) and completely ignore the far more relevant issue about US gov't officials who say things which serve to bolster the enemy while undermining the men and women who work daily while being in harm's way.

[trust no one]

[QUOTE=bobbcat]No he is not, and neither is Frist. QUOTE]


For the record, Senator Frist is a doctor who openly commented on a patient that wasn't his own.

As for Durbin, other than asking you to read conservative Andrew Sullivan's piece concerning what the Senator's said, I will leave the partisan political propaganda alone.

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