Red vs. Blue States

[mayor]

Originally Posted by luvmetender

This country HAS to figure out how to provide healthcare to everyone... if the US wants to remain a world power...

Ok, I'm game. Tell me how you would solve the problem. Feel free to think outside the box and deal with pharmaceutical companies, those in the medical profession, insurance companies and the legal profession. I'm always open to hearing proposals. If you were the Prez, what would you do?

Mayor

[prism68]

Honestly, the FIRST thing that should happen in the U.S. is a limit on malpractice awards. It is UNREAL how insurance has risen for doctors over the last 10 years thanks to tort lawyers (like good ol' John Edwards).

SECONDLY, there should be competition for our prescription drug dollars. Private funding makes up 2/3 of research now, so doctors are going to be naturally biased towards the drug companies that are paying them.

THIRD, (and I recognize this is a pipe dream) I'd like to see a service-cancellable system for indigents. If you can't afford to pay for treatment, it would be cool if you could somehow 'work it off'. Not necessarily in the hospital, but in any area of the city that had a need.

Okay, there's my start

[bobbcat]

It is amazing to me how people forget that health care is a commodity because it requires the time, skill, and expertise of someone else in order to deliver it.

Do you think twice about paying your monthly rent or mortgage? How about that car payment? Your car insurance? Your homeowner's insurance? Do you walk into retail outlets, pick out merchandise and not expect to pay for it before you leave?

Why is health care any different?! Yes, it is expensive, many many times over the level of inflation. Say thanks to advanced technology, the high cost of medical malpractice the docs have to pay, and last but not least, the desperate need for tort reforms! One more thing: The fact that medical facilities have to cover the cost of the millions] of people they treat every year who never pay. These facilities cannot take it on the chin, or they cannot operate!

[clc]

I really do wonder if any of you are without insurance? Because it seems that, from my own personal experience, people with insurance are very quick to say that there is no health care crisis and that everyone should be happy to pay over $800 for a 5 minute consultation.

Yes, I do think that everyone should pay to see a doctor, I don't think that the outrageous fees are fair. Right now, I'm a full time student plus I have three jobs. I work 36 hours a week at one, 27 hours at the second and 22 hours on the third. None of these have health insurance. In fact, the reason why my main job is only 36 hours a week is so they do NOT have to give us any benefits like health insurance. Even so, I barely make enough to pay for rent, food, tuition and books. I don't have a credit history so I am unable to qualify for a loan, so I have to work more hours. Also, since I don't qualify for a loan, I have no car and have to pay people to carpool to work. So please, don't tell me I should be happy to pay so much to get medicine for strep throat!

And about being in the minority. I guess that's true because most people live in large cities that have more than one hospital. But, around here, everyone is either in a small city with no hospital or on a farm or else the hospital has gone to private ownership so they can turn away anyone without a large amount of cash or insurance.

Also we were discussing this in class today and our professor stated that only 2% of medical fees/increases were due to malpractice and other lawsuits. So even if there were mass reforms, I would only be looking at a $20 savings on my emergency room visit? There has to be other ways to save money so that it wouldn't cost $37 for a cotton ball and bandaid (yes, that is what I was charged) and the full bill be more than what I take home in a month!

[prism68]

Originally Posted by clc

...
Also we were discussing this in class today and our professor stated that only 2% of medical fees/increases were due to malpractice and other lawsuits. So even if there were mass reforms, I would only be looking at a $20 savings on my emergency room visit?

I think 2% is a ridiculous amount- I'd like to see where he came up with that.
Anyway, here are some more reasons why health care costs are astronomical:
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New technologies-
We can do awesome things to keep people alive now, but at SIGNIFICANT costs

Work force is getting older-
Older people generally put more strain on health care infrastructure than do younger ones.

Patient demand-
Americans are way quicker to go for treatment than any other country. Plus we are swooning over advertisements for the latest drug and want to 'get fixed' for things we didn't even know we had until we saw the ad!

Increasing litigation-
Which ALSO hurts us in the form of increased REGULATION to try and curb the costs of the other.

More Doctors than we need overall-
# of physicians has grown 28% faster than the population over last 10 years

Shortage of non-physician support staff-
Lack of nurses, therapists, etc. means they have to lure them with huge salaries (which come from WHERE except us?)

The middle man (Insurance companies)-
Insured consumers are not directly paying for the services; as a result they don't realize the true cost of their treatment

My personal favorite:
Health status of the nation-
Geez, we smoke/drink/eat McDonald's twice a day/sit in front of the t.v.- then wonder why we can't stay healthy?!

Emerging diseases-
A.I.D.S., Resistance to antibiotics

Increasing number of uninsured-
Taxing already taxed systems by going to emergency rooms for common ailments

etc., etc., etc.

[bobbcat]

clc, people make choices. You made yours. I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but you could get health insurance if you really tried. You may have to pay more, but it could be done.

We have a family plan through hubby's company for which we pay over $350 monthly. Both of us have had doctor bills in the last couple of years (some surgery in hubby's case) for which there has been thousands of dollars the insurance did not cover. I have been making monthly payments to a number of docs at a level that we can afford. They are very good about accepting monthly payments of what you can afford. All it takes is a phone call. They don't even charge interest.

Pardon me for being just a bit indignant over your display of an apparent attitude that somehow you are "owed" health care. You are not!

[clc]

I'll ask my professor where he got the 2% figure. I'm sure he will be able to give you plenty of data. But, I'm not sure what some of the things you put down have to do with lawsuits?

bobbcat, I made this choice? Huh? I guess I made the choice to keep living so at 17 my parents could kick me out, stop supporting me and I could go to work like a dog to pay for everything I have. And I made the choice to not spend my life on welfare or working at McD's with no insurance for life and instead work three jobs so I can eat and go to school. I guess the other choice of just dying would have suited you better. And sure, I can get insurance "if I really tried" and then what should I give up to pay for it? My apartment? Food? Clothes? Because even working three jobs, I have a total of $1.72 in the bank right now since I just paid rent and the last installment for school. Please don't try to assume that there is more money in my budget than there is because unless you know of some way to pay for insurance with $0.72 a month, then it's just not doable. I don't even have my own computer, car or phone, so it's not like I spend on extras.

I don't think I'm OWED a dang thing but I also think that having to pay over $800 just so that I don't get scarlet fever AGAIN because I don't have insurance just isn't right. Please tell me where I said I was owed any free care? I did say that I am indeed paying on that hospital bill and I am constantly getting letters from both the hospital and doctor that they would like to sue me because I can't pay fast enough.

If I had an extra $300+ a month, then insurance wouldn't be a problem. Or if my job wasn't so cheap, they'd let me work an additional hour so I would be eligible for insurance through them. But being a poor student is where I am at right now and I DO NOT HAVE ANYWAY TO PAY FOR INSURANCE. Sorry to scream but it seems that some people have obviously never been part of the working poor!

[chippers21]

Originally Posted by clc

I'll ask my professor where he got the 2% figure. I'm sure he will be able to give you plenty of data. But, I'm not sure what some of the things you put down have to do with lawsuits?

bobbcat, I made this choice? Huh? I guess I made the choice to keep living so at 17 my parents could kick me out, stop supporting me and I could go to work like a dog to pay for everything I have. And I made the choice to not spend my life on welfare or working at McD's with no insurance for life and instead work three jobs so I can eat and go to school. I guess the other choice of just dying would have suited you better. And sure, I can get insurance "if I really tried" and then what should I give up to pay for it? My apartment? Food? Clothes? Because even working three jobs, I have a total of $1.72 in the bank right now since I just paid rent and the last installment for school. Please don't try to assume that there is more money in my budget than there is because unless you know of some way to pay for insurance with $0.72 a month, then it's just not doable. I don't even have my own computer, car or phone, so it's not like I spend on extras.

I don't think I'm OWED a dang thing but I also think that having to pay over $800 just so that I don't get scarlet fever AGAIN because I don't have insurance just isn't right. Please tell me where I said I was owed any free care? I did say that I am indeed paying on that hospital bill and I am constantly getting letters from both the hospital and doctor that they would like to sue me because I can't pay fast enough.

If I had an extra $300+ a month, then insurance wouldn't be a problem. Or if my job wasn't so cheap, they'd let me work an additional hour so I would be eligible for insurance through them. But being a poor student is where I am at right now and I DO NOT HAVE ANYWAY TO PAY FOR INSURANCE. Sorry to scream but it seems that some people have obviously never been part of the working poor!

Keep your chin up. And be proud of yourself. It sounds to me like you are doing exactly what you need to do to get out of the circumstances you are in. I wish you all the best. There should be some way for you to get your heathcare cheaper. I feel for you. My daughter is 22 and no longer able to be on our family healthcare plan, so she has no healthcare at this moment. We are reducing the rent she pays us so that she can buy catastropic insurance for the really bad stuff. No way she can afford a full health plan. The good news is she is young and the odds are with her that she won't need much while she is establishing herself in some kind of career. She just graduated college, which she paid for herself for the most part. So it can be done. Good luck to you.

[bobbcat]

I don't think I'm OWED a dang thing but I also think that having to pay over $800 just so that I don't get scarlet fever AGAIN because I don't have insurance just isn't right.

Talk to the hand. My husband doesn't understand why a relatively simple whatever ablation (I know, I should go look it up, but it's academic) of his eye as a result of a complication of cataract surgery (which was required for a complication of his detached retina repair) that only took a mere 5 minutes should cost over a thousand bucks. And so it goes. We sit here with an $800 bill (because that is how little our ridiculous insurance policy covers for this expensive little procedure). What do we do? Suck it up and pay it off in monthly payments. They don't complain. We don't complain (after the initial let's throw-a-fit today bit).

Are you beginning to see why all your whining just seems to be a bit much? You are not alone! So, quitcherbellyachin.'

[mayor]

Originally Posted by clc

I really do wonder if any of you are without insurance? Because it seems that, from my own personal experience, people with insurance are very quick to say that there is no health care crisis and that everyone should be happy to pay over $800 for a 5 minute consultation.

I have been without insurance and I have had to sacrifice my hard-earned money to purchase insurance.

Yes, I do think that everyone should pay to see a doctor, I don't think that the outrageous fees are fair.

Welcome to life after school.

Right now, I'm a full time student plus I have three jobs. I work 36 hours a week at one, 27 hours at the second and 22 hours on the third. None of these have health insurance. In fact, the reason why my main job is only 36 hours a week is so they do NOT have to give us any benefits like health insurance. Even so, I barely make enough to pay for rent, food, tuition and books. I don't have a credit history so I am unable to qualify for a loan, so I have to work more hours. Also, since I don't qualify for a loan, I have no car and have to pay people to carpool to work. So please, don't tell me I should be happy to pay so much to get medicine for strep throat!

Again, welcome to the real world! And congratulations! You are working hard and it WILL pay off for you. No one said it would be easy.

Also we were discussing this in class today and our professor stated that only 2% of medical fees/increases were due to malpractice and other lawsuits. So even if there were mass reforms, I would only be looking at a $20 savings on my emergency room visit? There has to be other ways to save money so that it wouldn't cost $37 for a cotton ball and bandaid (yes, that is what I was charged) and the full bill be more than what I take home in a month!

I believe your professor is misinformed. Please be advised that a majority of U.S. University professors come from a liberal bent and have an agenda. They WILL foist this agenda upon you, whether you know it or not. Be aware, and question EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to political issues. You don't want to end up a political parrot for either party.

Mayor

[FUNdamental]

Originally Posted by mayor

I have been without insurance and I have had to sacrifice my hard-earned money to purchase insurance.



Welcome to life after school.



Again, welcome to the real world! And congratulations! You are working hard and it WILL pay off for you. No one said it would be easy.



I believe your professor is misinformed. Please be advised that a majority of U.S. University professors come from a liberal bent and have an agenda. They WILL foist this agenda upon you, whether you know it or not. Be aware, and question EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to political issues. You don't want to end up a political parrot for either party.

Mayor

I saw the movie Sicko this past weekend. In the newspapers today were articles about the past Surgeon General saying he was required by the White House to stop certain public health and science facts and information from disseminating from his office for political, not scientific purposes. Can you believe it? Then I see "Mayor" ignoring facts on malpractice to make an unfounded, and ridiculous assumption.

Mayor, a simple Google search by you would have uncovered the truth.

From the non partisan Congressional Budget Office

"Premiums for malpractice insurance are lower when tort liability is restricted than they would be otherwise. But even large savings in premiums can have only a small direct impact on health care spending--private or governmental--because malpractice costs account for less than 2 percent of that spending."

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by FUNdamental

I saw the movie Sicko this past weekend. In the newspapers today were articles about the past Surgeon General saying he was required by the White House to stop certain public health and science facts and information from disseminating from his office for political, not scientific purposes. Can you believe it? Then I see "Mayor" ignoring facts on malpractice to make an unfounded, and ridiculous assumption

Here is article in which I believe talks about the items you cited above:
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"Carmona said some of his predecessors told him, "We have never seen it as partisan, as malicious, as vindictive, as mean-spirited as it is today, and you clearly have worse than anyone's had."

[mrbowler]

Originally Posted by FUNdamental

I saw the movie Sicko this past weekend.

I haven't seen the movie, but I did watch the feud/battle with CNN Dr. Sanjay Gupta & Michael Moore. They actually had a good exchange of viewpoints the other night, and I think that is the best thing that hopefully will come out of all of this is that the Health Care System needs change-what that change, and if it ever will happen is another question. I actually give credit to Dr. Sanjay Gupta for clarifying/correcting any facts that were reported wrong...IMO Michael Moore's data while defending his theme/position sometimes if you dig deeper a person could interpret his data as misleading-for example when Dr. Gupta questioned Michael Moore about that Health Care is "free". I don't know all the details of all the other systems that were compared in the movie, but if you look at it from Dr. Gupta's viewpoint-there is a cost, and somebody has picked up that cost. Now from Michael Moore's perspective a person could actually get "free" healthcare because I would imagine they didn't pay any taxes, costs.
From what I have listened to/seen Michael Moore used the available data to support his thesis in the movie(but I would need to watch entire movie to support this notion).

[mrbowler]

Some interesting comp's between the U.S. system versus the Cuban system.

I believe some of the data is from a 2004 report while Michael Moore said he had more current data from 2007 which I believe was 7,000-7,400.


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The average life expectancy of a child born in Cuba is 77.2 years, compared with 77.9 years in the United States, according to the WHO.

The number of children dying before their fifth birthday is seven per 1,000 live births in Cuba and eight per 1,000 in the United States.

Yet the United States spends more than 26 times as much on health, $6,096 per person a year, compared with only $229 in Cuba, the WHO figures show.
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While Moore got free care in Cuba, most foreigners pay, in what some critics call a "two-tiered system" where elite hospitals are reserved for the Communist leadership and celebrities such as Argentine soccer idol Diego Maradona.

"In Cuba, the elite hospitals are as good as here, if not better," said Leonel Cordova, a Cuban doctor who works as a emergency room physician at Miami's Baptist Hospital.

"The hospitals dedicated to the health of regular citizens are a disaster," said Cordova, who was sent to work in Zimbabwe and defected in 2000. At these hospitals, Cubans bring personal items such as towels, bed sheets, soap and even food, he said.

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[FUNdamental]

Originally Posted by mrbowler

I haven't seen the movie, but I did watch the feud/battle with CNN Dr. Sanjay Gupta & Michael Moore. They actually had a good exchange of viewpoints the other night, and I think that is the best thing that hopefully will come out of all of this is that the Health Care System needs change-what that change, and if it ever will happen is another question. I actually give credit to Dr. Sanjay Gupta for clarifying/correcting any facts that were reported wrong...IMO Michael Moore's data while defending his theme/position sometimes if you dig deeper a person could interpret his data as misleading-for example when Dr. Gupta questioned Michael Moore about that Health Care is "free". I don't know all the details of all the other systems that were compared in the movie, but if you look at it from Dr. Gupta's viewpoint-there is a cost, and somebody has picked up that cost. Now from Michael Moore's perspective a person could actually get "free" healthcare because I would imagine they didn't pay any taxes, costs.
From what I have listened to/seen Michael Moore used the available data to support his thesis in the movie(but I would need to watch entire movie to support this notion).

Background information: durring the debate on CNN, its chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, falsely asserted that the "only affiliation" of Paul Keckley, whom Gupta had quoted criticizing the national health care systems of France, Canada, and Cuba during a July 9 "fact check" of filmmaker Michael Moore's documentary Sicko, was "with Vanderbilt University." Again, Dr. Gupta said Dr. Paul Keckley's "only affiliation" was "with Vanderbilt University." Dr. Gupta was responding to Moore's claim that Keckley was "a person from a think tank group who is a big Republican contributor." Moore also said that Keckley "has done business with [health insurance provider] Blue Cross, with [pharmaceutical firm] Aventis, with these other groups," and claimed that Keckley was affiliated "with a think tank that's connected to [presidential candidate and former Wisconsin Gov.] Tommy Thompson [R]."

OK Got it? In denying Moore's allegations, Gupta asserted: "We checked it, Michael. We checked his conflict of interest. We do ask those questions."

As Warner Wolff would say, let' go to the video tape. Now the facts, in Gupta's earlier report -- which King excerpted during his show -- the caption identified Keckley not as affiliated "with Vanderbilt University," but rather as a "Deloitte Healthcare Expert." Indeed, in addition to serving on the faculty of Vanderbilt University, Keckley is the executive director of the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions.

Gupta also nit-picked Moore to death in his "reality check" piece, and actually had to retract a claim he made in it (Moore says in "Sicko!" that Cubans spend $251 per person on health care; Gupta claimed Moore said $25. He didn't, and Gupta admitted later he erred).

To continue, Gupta made false claims about how Social Security was broke, in response to Moore's claim that Social Security is a prime example of good government.

Worse, Gupta consistently cited "per capita" expenditures as a slam against foreign health programs, while failing to note that other countries' total expenditures stretch much further due to lower per unit costs, which was exactly Moore's point in Sicko!

Gupta was blatantly using his medical authority as a cover for political criticisms of national health care. His repeated comments about "high taxes" as a rationale to deny universal health care is proof.