Red vs. Blue States

[trust no one]

Originally Posted by prism68

Crazytimes, that college is paying off for you- see how smart you are already?
EXCELLENT point.

(coming from someone who is about 20K in college loan debt myself)

The GI Bill, which many soldiers returning from World War II used to attend college, is considered the greatest “investment” the government had ever made. It created a whole class of citizens moving up in income, and an increase in the overall tax base, resulting in the formation of the American middle class.

Anyone who thinks government education subsidies and cost deferments are wrong and not justified, simply is not looking at American history correctly. The worst thing our government can do for the society it reigns is to do away with government subsidies for higher education (unless our government wants us stupid and trainable).

[tschmitt]

Originally Posted by chippers21

Having completed sending 3 of my 4 kids to college, I have mixed emotions about the financial aid issue. When I had 3 kids in college at the same time, we received all kinds of financial aid, including Grants to Harvard Law School. But as soon as we had only 2 in school we received very little, and when we were down to 1 we received 0 financial aid. So now here I sit with $30000 in college debts to pay back for my kids and one child in school who gets 0 financial aid.
What I am saying is that the government determines how much aid you receive based on how they perceive your income and little else. I now pay $500 a month in college loans, in addition to my normal bills AND I am paying to send the 4th child to college without need-based financial aid.
As usual it is tough being part of the middle class in this country: taxed outrageously and told we are not entitled to the so called "benefits" the government provides. I fully expect that SS will be the same for us. They already tax it. (How did we ever allow that to happen???) Soon they will give it out proportional to your other income. So if you were wise enough to save for retirement you will not receive SS, despite the fact you paid into it all your life. Of course I am just speculating here.

chippers - I don't know why you ever paid for them to go to college...that has got to be the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you could have ever done.

And no, I'm not some stupid jerk who hates his kids - I don't have kids, and I just graduated last winter...I worked my butt off, just like my three brothers and one sister did (the last brother has just started his sophomore year at UCF) so that we could pay monthly payments while we were going to school (to cover what the loans, grants and scholarships wouldn't) and now we work our butts off to pay the montly payments.

Having talked to my friends, I can tell you that without a doubt, if you want your kids to value money and have a work ethic, make them pay for college and their car (yes, college and their car - my family did it that way and we turned out better than most of the people I know.) I had one friend in particular that told me about how his parents paid for him to go to college the first year, and he pissed that opportunity away...then, when he failed his classes (didn't even make a 2.0) they cried and told him they couldn't afford to pay for him to screw around and they yanked him...he did some soul searching and a few years later decided he was an idiot if he wasn't going to go to college, so he got some jobs, busted his butt, and went to college - and you know what? HE APPRECIATED IT FAR MORE WHEN HE SHOULDERED THE BURDEN.

No matter what your kids say, they don't appreciate it as much as if they had to pay for it (it REALLY makes an impact when you finish college, they hand you your diploma, and you get your loan payment book...for the NEXT TEN YEARS.)

So, please don't cry about paying for three kids, now a fourth, and how you're not getting aid.

How about parents who don't live with you, don't contribute to your college payments, but because you're a minor the gov't refuses to take them out of the equation - so your EFC goes from about 2 to 4k to 16k...how about that? Not only did my parents not help, but under the government rules - THEY HURT ME!!!

(sorry...not meaning to offend...guess I just had a lot to get off my chest )

[luvmetender]

Originally Posted by tschmitt

And no, I'm not some stupid jerk who hates his kids - I don't have kids, and I just graduated last winter... I can tell you that without a doubt, if you want your kids to value money and have a work ethic, make them pay for college and their car (yes, college and their car - my family did it that way and we turned out better than most of the people I know.)
So, please don't cry about paying for three kids, now a fourth, and how you're not getting aid.

OMG, I'm speechless... well, not quite...


Tschmitt... grow up, have some kids, then you are allowed to speak to this subject!

[chippers21]

[quote=tschmitt]chippers - I don't know why you ever paid for them to go to college...that has got to be the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you could have ever done.

And no, I'm not some stupid jerk who hates his kids - I don't have kids, and I just graduated last winter...I worked my butt off, just like my three brothers and one sister did (the last brother has just started his sophomore year at UCF) so that we could pay monthly payments while we were going to school (to cover what the loans, grants and scholarships wouldn't) and now we work our butts off to pay the montly payments.


Tschmitt you do not have the whole picture. My 3 college graduates worked hard and got great grades and paid 1/2 of the undergraduate bills by themselves with money they made from jobs in the summer and during school. My oldest went on to Law School at Harvard and now has $80000 of debts to pay back. The debts I spoke of our my husbands and myselfs because we agreed to pay half the kids undergraduate bills. I stand by that decision because the kids may now save for a home of their own and so on. Hubby and I could have drawn from our retirement to stay loan free but opted for low interest loans to pay our half.
And I am not crying about anything. Just commenting.
And congrats to you for working so hard. You WILL appreciate it more than those young people whos parents pay for everything.
As to the car issue, two of my kids now have their own cars, purchased with their own money. They "borrowed" cars from us for years. Used cars I might add. Very used.

[mayor]

Originally Posted by trust no one

The GI Bill, which many soldiers returning from World War II used to attend college, is considered the greatest “investment” the government had ever made. It created a whole class of citizens moving up in income, and an increase in the overall tax base, resulting in the formation of the American middle class.

These people EARNED the right to a government subsidy, no doubt.

I'm not saying ALL grants are bad. I'm just saying that there are plenty of people who have worked their tails off to earn scholarships from educational institutions. They work while they go to school. If you want it bad enough, this is still the land of opportunity.

As for the question about health care, it is not a right no matter how dire the situation. Should we as a people help those who can not help themselves? Absolutely. And we DO.

There is NO health care crisis in America. You can find a hospital in every city where they can NOT turn you away, by law, insurance or none. We still have the absolute BEST health care system in the world.

Want to drive down health care costs? The trial attorneys gotta be the first to go.

Mayor

[luvmetender]

Originally Posted by mayor

.
There is NO health care crisis in America. You can find a hospital in every city where they can NOT turn you away, by law, insurance or none. We still have the absolute BEST health care system in the world.

You may be able to find a hospital but it won't necessarily be a good one, AND, even though they don't require insurance, they WILL bill you. Mayor, you are just dead wrong about the health care crisis.

[bobbcat]

even though they don't require insurance, they WILL bill you.

You don't think you should pay for services rendered?

[luvmetender]

Originally Posted by bobbcat

You don't think you should pay for services rendered?

For tens of thousands of dollars? So they can take your house away from you? UMMMM.... NOOOOO!!!

[mayor]

Originally Posted by luvmetender

For tens of thousands of dollars? So they can take your house away from you? UMMMM.... NOOOOO!!!

So, you think you should be forced to pay for other people's health care?

Welcome to communist Russia, Luv. It didn't work there. It doesn't work in China. Canada has week and month-long waiting lists. But yet there are still proponents of failed systems. That's the liberal way. Take what doesn't work elsewhere and insist we do it here.

Health is not now, nor has it ever been a right, despite the left's attempt to convince the public that it is.

Mayor

[luvmetender]

Originally Posted by mayor

Health is not now, nor has it ever been a right, despite the left's attempt to convince the public that it is.

Mayor

So people in our own country should suffer while we go spend billions on the war in Iraq?

I really do not understand that logic.

[mayor]

Originally Posted by luvmetender

So people in our own country should suffer while we go spend billions on the war in Iraq?
I really do not understand that logic.

Who is suffering? Tell me who can't get health care. Like I said, ANYONE can walk into a doctor's office and get health care. Yes, they will also get a bill.

One of the problems is that people have allowed Government to replace the Church. Traditionally, the Church has reached out to the poor and needy. In fact, many still do today. In my church, we opened a clinic called The Ministries of Jesus.

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Jesus ministered to all three parts of people, their body, soul and spirit. We have dozens of physicians, nurses, opticians, psychologists, counselors and dentists who VOLUNTEER their time and services to see patients.

The best part?

It's FREE. NO ONE pays a dime. The ministry is supported by donations only. Patients receive medical attention, counseling and FREE prescription drugs if they are needed. Only a small percentage of the patients who come to MOJ actually go to our church. The majority do NOT go to our church. They just live in the area or a friend/family member referred them to us.

THIS is the way to do health care, not some lame government bureaucracy where doctors don't give a rip about patients.

Similar programs like this across the country.

Mayor

[mayor]

Originally Posted by luvmetender

So people in our own country should suffer while we go spend billions on the war in Iraq?
I really do not understand that logic.

It is good that you sincerely want to fix the problem, Luv. However, socialized medicine is NOT the way to go about it. Sincerity is not a substitute for good policy.

Mayor

[luvmetender]

How do you know this, mayor? This country HAS to figure out how to provide healthcare to everyone... if the US wants to remain a world power...

And I think I will sign off for awhile. This is just too frustrating...

[clc]

Originally Posted by mayor

These people EARNED the right to a government subsidy, no doubt.

I'm not saying ALL grants are bad. I'm just saying that there are plenty of people who have worked their tails off to earn scholarships from educational institutions. They work while they go to school. If you want it bad enough, this is still the land of opportunity.

As for the question about health care, it is not a right no matter how dire the situation. Should we as a people help those who can not help themselves? Absolutely. And we DO.

There is NO health care crisis in America. You can find a hospital in every city where they can NOT turn you away, by law, insurance or none. We still have the absolute BEST health care system in the world.

Want to drive down health care costs? The trial attorneys gotta be the first to go.

Mayor

I normally just lurk and don't post because I've seen some of the nastiness, here and on other political type boards. But how can you say that there is NO health care crisis? I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if you get sick where I live and you have no money - YOU STAY SICK! The hospital here is privately owned by the group of doctors that own the only medical clinic. They will NOT see you if you do not either have a full cash payment, credit cards or else insurance and cash to back up the rest of the payment.

If you don't have these things, and many of us who are students and working two jobs just to eat don't have them, then you can go to the school nurse who has just a bottle of aspirin and a heating pad or you can try to bum a ride to the next big town, which is almost 100 miles away to go to a hosptial that is a non-profit public place for care.

And yes, this is legal. Last winter I had strep throat and no doctor here would see me. I was lucky enough to have a friend with a car drive me the 194 mile round trip to go to the emergency room and come home with half of a prescription - they said to come back for the rest if I didn't feel better. And yes I am still paying off that bill - at least $10 a month on the $865 total that never seems to go down because they charge outrageous interest but it is all I can afford.

I'll go to Canada anyday. I was sick there once with an ear infection while on vacation, went to the emergency room and was seen immediately. Got a full prescription and a follow up letter from the doctor to make sure I was ok after I got home.

[mayor]

Originally Posted by clc

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if you get sick where I live and you have no money - YOU STAY SICK! The hospital here is privately owned by the group of doctors that own the only medical clinic. They will NOT see you if you do not either have a full cash payment, credit cards or else insurance and cash to back up the rest of the payment.

I'll go to Canada anyday. I was sick there once with an ear infection while on vacation, went to the emergency room and was seen immediately. Got a full prescription and a follow up letter from the doctor to make sure I was ok after I got home.

Then you are in the minority. The vast majority of cities do have hospitals where you have to be treated. A crisis would imply that the majority can not get health care. That simply isn't the case.

As for your experience with canadian health care, you got lucky.

You can read more about the problems Canada is encountering on the Canadian Broadcasting Company web site.

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And a simple search for Canadian Health Care in Google reveals a treasure trove of horror stories.

Mayor