Gay Marriage / Abortion

[crazytimes]

You know I was thinking about these two things lately. Obviously they're pretty hot issues. I personally am against abortion and gay marriage. One of the most common things I hear is, "well it doesn't affect you so what difference does it make?"

I completely understand why people would say that. In all honestly it WOULD NOT affect me if Tim & Tom got married or if Jane Doe had an abortion. Now I am sure some people could think of ways it would affec them, but I'm not going to try.

But I have a problem with that "it doesn't affect me" view. Am I supposed to simply sit back and condone these things? "Oh go ahead, do it. It doesn't affect me so who cares?!" I can't! How can I say it's ok to do these two things when I am morally opposed to them?

I know it turns into a battle of morals...because not everyone is morally opposed to these things. But I just wish people would TRY and understand why people are against gay marrage and/or abortion. It is not because I am homophobic (I love that one ) or feel women should not have rights. It is not because I am on some crusade to rid the world of gay people, etc. It is because these things go against my funamental beliefs.

For me it's not about "my beliefs are better than yours." It's simply that I can't and wont condone these things. If the laws ultimately do not reflect my beliefs then so be it, but I will NEVER condone it simply because "it doesn't affect me."

Now please undersatnd I'm not trying to make gay people or those who have abortions out to be these big bad evil sinners. I believe that we are ALL sinners and in God's eyes we have all sinned equally. I will admit that I have done many terrible things in my life. I just get so tired of people acting as if those who share my beliefs are these evil, homophobic monsters.

[Twinplets]

It bothers me less that same-sex couples who have been together for many many years can get married, than that man/woman couples can get married and divorced and married and divorced, etc. Some people seem to get new partners more often than most people get new cars, and yet when it started being a big issue here in Massachusetts all we heard about was how the same-sex couples getting married would be bad for family values.

[mayfly]

I have a big problem with same sex marriages and abortions. I don't feel like I am better than people who commit these sins, I mess up every day.

These topics have been picked apart in every way, and I have never seen anyone change their mind on their beliefs.

[prism68]

Originally Posted by crazytimes

... I just wish people would TRY and understand why people are against gay marrage and/or abortion. It is not because I am homophobic (I love that one ) or feel women should not have rights. It is not because I am on some crusade to rid the world of gay people, etc. It is because these things go against my funamental beliefs.

...I just get so tired of people acting as if those who share my beliefs are these evil, homophobic monsters.

Very well said!
Conservative values tend to be attributed to the infamous "Radical Religious Right" like they are freak occurence of nature. My personal pet peeve statement is the one that says I am so 'intolerant'- HA!!!!!! There is not ONE SINGLE GROUP of mainstream opinions in America today less tolerated than those of the conservatives.

[whitequeen96]

Prism68, I can certainly see why you say that conservatives' opinions are not tolerated. It does seem like that, sometimes.

However, here is something to think about. "Liberal" ideas about things such as same-sex marriage and abortion say that you CAN do these things, not that you MUST do these things. In other words, liberals leave it up to YOU to decide what YOU should do. But it often seems that conservatives say that you CANNOT do something. They don't seem to believe that you should have any say in the matter, or that you should have a choice.

It's past 1:00AM, so I may not be very clear. Abortion is a tricky issue, especially with medical advances that can save premature babies earlier and earlier. But I just don't understand the opposition to gay marriage. I don't believe that people will choose same-sex marriage over traditional marriage if they aren't gay. Same-sex marriage will simply provide recognition of relationships that already do exist, with the same responsibilities and duties. I think it's wonderful when anyone wants to pledge to take care of another "until death do us part." Why is this so bad?

[prism68]

Originally Posted by whitequeen96

... I don't believe that people will choose same-sex marriage over traditional marriage if they aren't gay.

Oh, I don't either; I've never really heard that particular argument.
It is hard to explain fully why I DO have a problem with it; it is made up of several components that may mean nothing to anyone else, but mean something to me.

For one, I don't believe this is an appropriate lifestyle- so I don't want to see it become so mainstream that my children HAVE to accept it as 'normal'.
Call that opinion what you will- but the gay people I've known (happens to be quite a lot) are NOT carefree, happy people. All seem to have come to that lifestyle as a result of abnormal childhoods, abuse, etc.. Most seem perfectly miserable and unable to maintain healthy family relationships. No I don't assume the whole gay population feels that way- but we all base our views on our own experiences, like it or not.

For another, I DO believe in a slippery slope. If this lifestyle is accepted- to the point of making these 'spouses' eligible for all the rights of marriage; what is next? Who is to say that bigamists and pedophiles won't seek the same 'acceptance'?

Finally, I feel like offering the sanctity of legal marriage to this population cheapens what marriage is designed to be. It will also make it easier for them to adopt; which I am VERY against. Having taught for 10 yrs.- I have seen the effects of children raised in this environment many times; it has NEVER been good for the child.

At any rate, I know there are 'signal words' in my post that Liberals will react to and want to attack. The point is- this is what I believe.

[whitequeen96]

Prism68, I am happy that we are able to really discuss this and see one another's point of view.

Here's what I think about what you said. I believe that it's true that many gay people are unhappy, but I think it's because they are so hated by much of our society. I also don't think a promiscuous (sp?) lifestyle is good for anyone. That is why I think marriage would help to solve these problems; gay people would be accepted (at least somewhat), and we would be encouraging a monogomous lifestyle, with all its attendant responsibilities. I think devotion to another human being is a maturing, enriching experience for anyone, and that this benefits our society as a whole.

As for it becoming so normal that your children HAVE to accept it as a normal lifestyle, I don't see that. There are many things out there in society that I don't agree with or want my child to partake in (certain religions, the promiscuous lifestyle shown on TV, materialistic values, racism, etc.), so I will be sure to let my child know that I disaprove of them. To be honest, I think it would be easier to get sucked into the things I've just mentioned because these are a matter of choice. However, I think that homosexuality is rarely, if ever, a choice that someone makes.

The adoption issue is very sensitive to a lot of people. I have my opinion on it, but I'm open to more evidence. As for the slippery slope leading to the things you mentioned, I do hope that we can be smarter than that!

[prism68]

Originally Posted by whitequeen96

Prism68, I am happy that we are able to really discuss this and see one another's point of view.

Me, too.

Originally Posted by whitequeen96

...However, I think that homosexuality is rarely, if ever, a choice that someone makes.

See, this is probably the fundamental difference between our views.
I DO believe it is a choice. I am sure there are genetic influences/ predispositions that make someone more LIKELY to behave this way. However, this is also true for drug addicts, alcoholics, etc.. They CHOOSE to abstain or to participate.

With that in mind- I can't accept society having to coddle these people (rearrange the law for them, etc.). I don't just speak off the top of my head on this; I have a gay cousin and many, many acquaintances. One of my current student's sister is gay and lives with her 'spouse'. These two women are raising 3 little boys... and I have a MAJOR problem with that. These little guys are so starved for male attention they just about fall all over my husband anytime he comes around.

Like you said though, I appreciate the chance to hear where you are coming from without it degenerating into a name-calling brawl

[bobbcat]

Great thread, folks.

I also subscribe (from personal experience knowing a number of gays, including cousins) to the notion that by and large, this is not a very happy, well-adjusted group. I think the pressures put forth by the stigma of being gay (albeit it is becoming less and less so as time goes on) do play a role, as it is not at all uncommon for them to have to face rejection by family members and friends. The major reason, to my mind, for their misery is the simple fact that the homosexual lifestyle is not natural, and I think that on a conscious level all the way down to a subliminal level, these people know this, and that is bound to create a generalized uneasiness that accompanies their persuit of the gay lifestyle. Of all the gays I have known, there is no exception to a pattern of defensiveness, cynicism, or both that fetters their overall outlook on life.

I do not believe in passing judgement upon them or making the suggestion that they should seek therapy in order to try to change. There is little doubt in my mind though for many of them, that undergoing a thorough psychological assessment would be a positive thing for them.

I do agree with Angela that children are far better off to be raised in the tradional mother/father environment even though there are cases of gay couples raising children successfully.

[whitequeen96]

OK, so now I understand! I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Personally, I don't see why people have chosen this lifestyle throughout history, when it so often came with severe censure, even death.

And yes, I'm glad we're SO civilized! lol!

[whitequeen96]

OK, so now I understand! Personally, I don't see why people would "choose" this lifestyle throughout history, when it so often came with severe censure, even death. That's why I believe people are usually born straight or gay. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

And yes, I'm glad we're SO civilized! lol!

[FUNdamental]

1000 gay marriages isn't going to change your life one bit whether the "government" approves it or not. If your entire basis for the government rejecting homosexual marriage is due to one line in the old testament perhaps you should read this.

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into sl*****, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[dixieboysmom]

I appreciate what youa re saying
My brother is gay and he is themsot unhappy depressed man I know of.
He is never happy about anything, When he cam out we all exceptedit and try to toelrate him and his actions. We are verymuch into the things of JEsus and my Mom and Dad and my Husband and I are both MIssionarys, We love the person hate the sin. I am proud to have a man for my partner. And do not feel same sex marriage is appropriate but that is my opinion. I am also totally against abortion,. We cannot have children and feel these babies could be adopted. But its not up to me. Most woman who have had an abortion go thru severe mental problems. Its a proven fact.

So All I fo is pray that people will go to God before they make thier life choices.
Thank you

Originally Posted by prism68;82399
0

Oh, I don't either; I've never really heard that particular argument.
It is hard to explain fully why I DO have a problem with it; it is made up of several components that may mean nothing to anyone else, but mean something to me.

For one, I don't believe this is an appropriate lifestyle- so I don't want to see it become so mainstream that my children HAVE to accept it as 'normal'.
Call that opinion what you will- but the gay people I've known (happens to be quite a lot) are NOT carefree, happy people. All seem to have come to that lifestyle as a result of abnormal childhoods, abuse, etc.. Most seem perfectly miserable and unable to maintain healthy family relationships. No I don't assume the whole gay population feels that way- but we all base our views on our own experiences, like it or not.

For another, I DO believe in a slippery slope. If this lifestyle is accepted- to the point of making these 'spouses' eligible for all the rights of marriage; what is next? Who is to say that bigamists and pedophiles won't seek the same 'acceptance'?

Finally, I feel like offering the sanctity of legal marriage to this population cheapens what marriage is designed to be. It will also make it easier for them to adopt; which I am VERY against. Having taught for 10 yrs.- I have seen the effects of children raised in this environment many times; it has NEVER been good for the child.

At any rate, I know there are 'signal words' in my post that Liberals will react to and want to attack. The point is- this is what I believe.

[freefinder]

Morally I have issues with both but I also disagree with my own beliefs.

I wish life was as easy as we all gll go two by two as male female pairs to the happy ever after of storybook endings but that first sin opened the doors to the world we now live in.

Morally I am against abortion but many years ago I heald the hand of a 12 year as she was giving birth to her half-sister.By the time authorities learned her father was the father it was to late for an abortion.The 12 year old died and her baby went home with her parents as said she had lied.This was before DNA testing would have been proof either way.I wish fetal adoption and transplantaion to a surragote womb so that those unwanted fetuses could be raised by those who want a child.

As for gay marrage just because I morally object does not mean that I feel those who want it should not have equal rights.We call ourselves male and female as genders why can we not have other names for gender sapcific unions.Male with male would be garriage, female with female would be larriage and male with female would remain as marriage.It could provide legal status with religons left to decide their own beliefs.Sorry about the spelling being worse than my normal bad spelling but my brain is fogging tonight and I could not get spell check to work.

[hippopotamus]

I want to keep this civil so I'm not going to criticize anyone's opinions and say what the Bible actually does say, and what the Bible doesn't say (but some people think it does). There's a great multiple award winning documentary all about the Bible and Homosexuality called For The Bible Tells Me So [Only registered and activated users can see links. Either login above or Register Now] This film also made the short list for the Oscars last year for Best Documentary.