Racism & the schism of America

[prism68]

Wow. I came home this evening and read the venomous replies to an earlier post in a now-closed thread and just wanted to move out of the country. People are so blinded by their own ideology that I truly wonder if there can BE any real discussion/debate anymore?

I was called a racist, rabid, bad teacher, and a host of other things because I shared what my experience has been. Gross generalizations were made on my character, and my mouth just dropped to the floor reading those posts because you people don't KNOW me.

Did you know I lived in the GHETTO for 3 years? That I lived with a Mexican family in the poorest section of Toledo during that time? That about 90% of the students I have taught were black? That those same students have been clothed and fed and sheltered and adored by me?

When I made comments about some communities having anti-education views; I know whereof I speak. A couple of blocks down the road is such a community, there are at least 5 or 6 in this town alone. It is really scary and disheartening to me how a couple of people were so quick to label me so many ways based on a few sentences.

Calling me a bad teacher really got my goat because I happen to be one of the good ones. Period. It is my passion and my God-given gift to do and I'll be doing it the rest of my life.
I know some horrid teachers; I refuse to be lumped into that group because of some assumption someone makes. Go talk to ANY of my former or current students or parents. Without exception you will get a good report. I dropped out in 9th grade, pregnant and unwed; I KNOW the value of a good teacher, because that is the reason I was able to go on and graduate college at the top of my class a few years later. And I mean top, as in 1st one across the stage. I make that point because I could have chosen to do anything, but I choose to teach.

It is insane how America has become a land of 'me or them', and we can find no common ground.

At any rate, I am probably just hormonal and I should know better than to get my feelings hurt on this board; much less admit to it. If I had more common sense, I'd have probably read that junk and then just got some Ben & Jerry's New York Super Fudge Chunk (in those convenient little serving size pints )

I'd just love to have some reason for hope- that there are still reasonable people in this world that can discuss/debate without resorting to name-calling and cursing. That America is NOT just a split nation between Liberals and Conservatives, but a land where people are free to EDUCATE themselves on topics through public discourse.
Is there such a thing?

[bobbcat]

People are so blinded by their own ideology that I truly wonder if there can BE any real discussion/debate anymore?

With some people, there indeed cannot be. Again, I take my hat off to you for sharing what you did in that thread. You displayed much more patience than I did. I have been visiting political/current events discussion boards for 6 years now and have grown quite a thick skin. But if I get the impression that someone is not even open to consider another's point of view, what's the point in even trying? I just get "prickly" instead.

If I had been treated with more respect, I might have gone into the fact that I had experience visiting all sorts of neighborhoods as a home health nurse and got the impression that most everyone has the same goals and values, those being a good hard day's work bringing forth the "American Dream." But alas, some areas are fettered with those few who don't share those goals. Such people prefer to live on welfare and/or make a "living" selling drugs. The others would love nothing more than to take their neighborhood back. How do I know this? I heard it "from the horse's mouth" time and time again.

Be assured that what you shared in that thread was time well spent, Angela. Hope you continue to share your thoughts and feelings with the forum regardless of the rancor that may ensue.

[auryn]

Originally Posted by prism68

Wow. I came home this evening and read the venomous replies to an earlier post in a now-closed thread and just wanted to move out of the country. People are so blinded by their own ideology that I truly wonder if there can BE any real discussion/debate anymore?

I was called a racist, rabid, bad teacher, and a host of other things because I shared what my experience has been. Gross generalizations were made on my character, and my mouth just dropped to the floor reading those posts because you people don't KNOW me.

Did you know I lived in the GHETTO for 3 years? That I lived with a Mexican family in the poorest section of Toledo during that time? That about 90% of the students I have taught were black? That those same students have been clothed and fed and sheltered and adored by me?

When I made comments about some communities having anti-education views; I know whereof I speak. A couple of blocks down the road is such a community, there are at least 5 or 6 in this town alone. It is really scary and disheartening to me how a couple of people were so quick to label me so many ways based on a few sentences.

Calling me a bad teacher really got my goat because I happen to be one of the good ones. Period. It is my passion and my God-given gift to do and I'll be doing it the rest of my life.
I know some horrid teachers; I refuse to be lumped into that group because of some assumption someone makes. Go talk to ANY of my former or current students or parents. Without exception you will get a good report. I dropped out in 9th grade, pregnant and unwed; I KNOW the value of a good teacher, because that is the reason I was able to go on and graduate college at the top of my class a few years later. And I mean top, as in 1st one across the stage. I make that point because I could have chosen to do anything, but I choose to teach.

It is insane how America has become a land of 'me or them', and we can find no common ground.

At any rate, I am probably just hormonal and I should know better than to get my feelings hurt on this board; much less admit to it. If I had more common sense, I'd have probably read that junk and then just got some Ben & Jerry's New York Super Fudge Chunk (in those convenient little serving size pints )

I'd just love to have some reason for hope- that there are still reasonable people in this world that can discuss/debate without resorting to name-calling and cursing. That America is NOT just a split nation between Liberals and Conservatives, but a land where people are free to EDUCATE themselves on topics through public discourse.
Is there such a thing?

You're right. I don't know if you are or are not a good teacher. I don't recall name-calling or cursing at anyone, though. (?)

You said it really hurt you at my having suggested you're not a good teacher. So let me clarify it. You came to the defense of someone who I feel made a very racist comment about certain cultures being "anti-work, anti-education". I was offended by that statement. (Not yours, the original one.) I really do not care what people think of me personally. But when that statement was made, I felt that it was a statement that was aimed at children. I do not feel in any way that children are responsible for themselves. Yes, some kids are forced to be responsible for themelves, but that is not their fault. It suggested to me that when that person looked at my daughter, she would immediately be included inside the stereotypical UNTRUE figment of that person's imagination, where entire "cultures" are lazy and stupid, and therefore too lazy to get an education or a job? THAT statement hurt me the way mine hurt you. My family is not lazy, uneducated, and we all work, hard. My entire extended family lives and works the same way. I do not enjoy when someone tells me that myself or my husband or my child is anti-work!

You came to that person's defense, by quoting two black kids who made racists comments aimed at you because you were white. Then you said something to the effect of YOU go drive through the ghetto to get to work, YOU go let your kids have their gameboys stolen. You're absolutely 100% correct, I do not know. The only thing I know of you is the things you said in that post. I did not like those things. If I read that exact paragraph, and it came from my daughter's teachers keyboard, I would really want to know if she truly believes the sterotype kinds of things that were stated. My daughter did not steal your child's gameboy. My daughter did not tell you that she don't have to listen to no white woman. My daughter did not tell you that white people should pay for her field trip. And I'm sure that are other kids in your school who would never say those things to you. But you didn't talk about the kids that don't say those things, you only talked about the two bad comments. It sounded to me an awful lot like you were saying all the kids were the same. And if that isn't what you are saying, I apologize, I truly do, but you also did not do a very good job of explaining it. If the only thing I had to go by was that two paragraph post, and I knew the person typing that statement would be my daughter's teacher next year, I would seriously consider taking her out of that school.

I generally do not have a "line" as far as being offended by things, but I am offended by people stereotyping anyone else based on the color of their skin. It seemed as though there was a lot of that happening, and when two of us tried to point that out we were bombarded the same way you felt you all were. Maybe it did get out of hand, but really, please do not tell me I am part of a lazy, stupid, community. I can recognize lazy and stupid when I see it, and I don't see it in any "culture." I don't care how you want debate the semantics of culture on dictionary.com. I am telling you, I was offended by the use of the word culture, and I am positive I am not the only person on earth who would be. So, instead of getting all defensive about being called racist, just don't use the word next time.

I'm sorry to you prism. Maybe one day we can actually be on the same side of a debate here

[prism68]

Originally Posted by auryn

... If I read that exact paragraph, and it came from my daughter's teachers keyboard, I would really want to know if she truly believes the sterotype kinds of things that were stated. My daughter did not steal your child's gameboy. My daughter did not tell you that she don't have to listen to no white woman. My daughter did not tell you that white people should pay for her field trip.

Of course she didn't; that was part of the point. I was attempting to say that there really are whole communities where that is the mindset- kind of encouraged by each other.

At no time did I mean to imply that blacks or mexicans or any other group is that way as a whole. That's why I included the term 'white trash'- what do you associate with that when you hear that term? The trailer parks of kids hanging out getting high all day with drunk parents, that kind of thing.

Just to make it a balanced point, I had a white girl say in class one day when we were making bus assignments for a field trip, "I can't sit next to black boys; my daddy said they'll rape me". What made this statement even more mind-boggling is she said it to my black paraprofessional (who loved this child, btw).
Of course they are hearing it from their parents! That was the whole blessed point; that they are growing up in a 'culture' of hate/poverty/(insert any horror)...
The only way they can know anything different is to be exposed to the idea somewhere along the way that they can get out of the cycle; to come to their own truths and live them.

Originally Posted by auryn

...please do not tell me I am part of a lazy, stupid, community.

I hope you understand by now I was not? I was for real, COME here and I'll SHOW you what I mean. Maybe you truly haven't seen a community like that; they abound here. When I say community, I am talking a few blocks- not a whole race.
My particular neighborhood is about 70% black and 30% white- that means I have gotten to know lots of black families, of course. My neighbor's child, Kisha, spent all her free time over here during summer's when she was young. I ADORE that child and her whole family for that matter. That is the house I go to when I run out of milk or eggs; that is who gets our mail when we are gone; that is who helps when the car won't start... etc. and vice-versa.

Anyway, my point was: I had the opportunity to watch Kisha grow up over the 10 years we lived here. She grew into the loveliest lady you could ever hope to meet. She got a scholarship to a medical college on two sports. She is a DOLL all the way around. The way her mom has supported her throughout school (never missed a game, even when they were three hours away) is an incredible testimony to what families can be.
This is just one story out of dozens I could tell; so believe me, I don't for a minute condemn any race.

Originally Posted by bobbcat

...I had experience visiting all sorts of neighborhoods as a home health nurse and got the impression that most everyone has the same goals and values, those being a good hard day's work bringing forth the "American Dream."
But alas, some areas are fettered with those few who don't share those goals. Such people prefer to live on welfare and/or make a "living" selling drugs. The others would love nothing more than to take their neighborhood back. How do I know this? I heard it "from the horse's mouth" time and time again.

Exactly! I agree and you said it very well. There is a little old lady in one of the communities I have been speaking of.... she goes out and sweeps her street everyday and she has the prettiest flowers. Anyway, I watched her march up to the podium at a city council meeting one time and say with all the grace and eloquence of Queen Elizabeth that she'd like them to do something about the young thugs in her neighborhood. My heart just burst for this woman.

So the next week, here comes the cop cars lined up and down the block. They locked up a dozen or so, only to have them all come creeping around again in about another week. It is very discouraging.
Most of all, I feel for the children being raised in it. I have had kids come in and tell me they hadn't gotten any sleep because "The police were there all night"

[mayfly]

Just popping in here to give a big hug
((((((((prism6))))))))))

[prism68]

Originally Posted by mayfly

Just popping in here to give a big hug
((((((((prism6))))))))))

Bless you, Mayfly That is very sweet. I should go around seeking more hugs and less Ben & Jerry's! That would keep me from drowning my sorrows (or is it hormones- still can't make the distinction, lol) in 1,200 calorie pints.

[CagedTroll]

Ignore that I'm posting this thread right now, but didn't Ben & Jerry's just release an Atkins-friendly low-carb ice cream?

[bobbcat]

Here ya go, Troll:
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[bassmount]

OK read the other thread and I have to put my 2 cents in because I am not sure if it was brought out or not in that other thread. It got a bit confusing there at the end. LOL

There is a difference between cultur and race. I think that is the biggest point to that whole "debate" and Prism did try to give examples, but it didn't seem to help. So, I#ll give it a shot. Take for example, I am in the German culture right now. The celebrations, the food, the history, BUT not all Germans are Anglo Saxon white, some are brown skined Turks, some are olive skinned Italian, BUT they all live within the German culture and many ARE German. They share the same things and speak the same language. They may have different colors, but share the same culture. Definition of culture
n 1: a particular civilization at a particular stage
2: the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social
group

Race is something that many use to define themselves, while inside of a culture. Sush as our census records asking for race on them or your drivers license. Definition of Race \Race\, n. [F. race; cf. Pr. & Sp. raza, It. razza; all
from OHG. reiza line, akin to E. write. See Write.]
1. The descendants of a common ancestor; a family, tribe,
people, or nation, believed or presumed to belong to the
same stock; a lineage; a breed.

Two different things, yet part of a whole. When someone says that a culture is engaging in things that are not very good, it has little to do with the race of the said people within the culture, which is why prism said 'white trash' to help with this distinction, although 'trailer trash' might have been a better example. When you hear those words, you get a picture in your mnind, that has little to do with a 'race,' because people from any race could be in that situation.

OK, not that this helped any, but HUGS to you all from Deutschland.

[mayor]

Originally Posted by prism68

I'd just love to have some reason for hope- that there are still reasonable people in this world that can discuss/debate without resorting to name-calling and cursing. That America is NOT just a split nation between Liberals and Conservatives, but a land where people are free to EDUCATE themselves on topics through public discourse. Is there such a thing?

Interestingly enough, it is not liberalism/conservatism that is splitting the country. I read an article a couple weeks back, and I wish I could remember where, but it showed much more divided lines amongst those who go to church regularly and those who do not. Do not be fooled by what the eye can see. This is first and foremost a spiritual battle, played out on the field of mankind. It brought to mind the following verses which make sense to those who sense and are foolishness to those who are perishing. (1 Corinthians 1:1

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. - Ephesians 6:12

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:20-32

Mayor

[auryn]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by bassmount

There is a difference between cultur and race. I think that is the biggest point to that whole "debate" and Prism did try to give examples, but it didn't seem to help. So, I#ll give it a shot. Take for example, I am in the German culture right now. The celebrations, the food, the history, BUT not all Germans are Anglo Saxon white, some are brown skined Turks, some are olive skinned Italian, BUT they all live within the German culture and many ARE German. They share the same things and speak the same language. They may have different colors, but share the same culture. Definition of culture
n 1: a particular civilization at a particular stage
2: the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social
group

I agree with that entirely. However, I do not consider "white trash" or "black thugs" to be a culture. The problem I had with the use of the word is that when you say that entire segments of the population are anti-anything, or just generally sterotype someone based on their "culture," it really doesn't matter if you say you actually meant something else, because the fact is, other people cannot see your culture, yet they can see your race. So if a person or group is going to make statements such as that, other people have no way of knowing exactly who you are referring to. They will base culture on race. Also, in the original thread, bobbcat was not referring to "white trash." It stemmed from a link about Brown Vs The Board of Education and how black students lag behind white students.

[bassmount]

[QUOTE=auryn]

I agree with that entirely. However, I do not consider "white trash" or "black thugs" to be a culture. The problem I had with the use of the word is that when you say that entire segments of the population are anti-anything, or just generally sterotype someone based on their "culture," it really doesn't matter if you say you actually meant something else, because the fact is, other people cannot see your culture, yet they can see your race. So if a person or group is going to make statements such as that, other people have no way of knowing exactly who you are referring to. They will base culture on race. Also, in the original thread, bobbcat was not referring to "white trash." It stemmed from a link about Brown Vs The Board of Education and how black students lag behind white students.

Just to clarify, I think I said it was Prism who said "White Trash." Not sure I even mentioned Bobcat in my post above. I was commenting to the fact that sometimes people get wrapped up around a word, that can mean many things.

While I agree with you that sometimes saying 'culture' will in a way represent a whole segment of the population, when you are on the net and typing vs. speaking with someone in person, sometimes you have to use words that may not set well with everyone. If that makes sense. LOL

I mean if Prism or Bobcat would have said 'some people' instead of 'culture' (which ever one said it first) I think you would have been just as offended. You would have jumped to the conclusion they were speaking of people of color. That would be human nature, to think the worst in words. I think the problem was that they were trying to be too PC. We all try to use the right words, to convey our feelings and thoughts and sometimes those words are not exacly the right ones. You have to not get hung on one word, but go on to look at the point they are making. Their point or at least the one I saw was. It is unfortunatly true that there are people, within some communities that are left behind by either their own choice or the chocie of others (I.E. their parents, rotten teachers, the goverment via the cycle of welfare). The word I saw that you got hung up on was 'culture,' not that the points were valid or invalid. It is hard to get a point to come out right online. I don' always do it right, sometimes I choose my words poorly, I'm not perfect, none of us are. I just ususally look beyond a word choice, that I would not have used and go on to try and get the point that they are trying to make. It causes a lot less stress that way.

[prism68]

Originally Posted by bassmount

...I just ususally look beyond a word choice, that I would not have used and go on to try and get the point that they are trying to make. It causes a lot less stress that way.

Very good point, Becky. Thanks

[bobbcat]

I just ususally look beyond a word choice, that I would not have used and go on to try and get the point that they are trying to make. It causes a lot less stress that way.

I agree wholeheartedly that this is a great point. It is always helpful to give others the benefit of the doubt (or at least try to).

It is also helpful to remember that if you come on to someone in a negative way while you are feeling offended or riled by something they say (such as being derisive or condescending), this is not likely to help the situation, but in fact, make things worse, which is readily noted in that particular thread. Instead, IMHO, it is a better approach to ask a question or questions in an effort to confirm just where the person is coming from.

[auryn]

There was an editorial in the paper here yesterday that I felt was relevant to our thread(s) here:


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I hope everyone reads it!