Can we talk about depression?

[Shainie]

I don't want this to turn into the conversation like last night, but I was kind of surprised that so many here are taking something for depression. Myself, I've never experienced depression. I don't ever remember a day that I felt "depressed". Sad? Angry? Worried? Sure, all of those, but nothing that lasted. Even when my dad died. I never felt "dread". Even now, only 7 months later - I still miss him, but I feel at peace about his passing.

ANYWAY . . . there was all this talk about it being a chemical imbalance, etc. But what I'm wondering is when you were prescribed the drugs you're taking, was there any tests done? Even though I'm not depressed, how could my doctor prove it? Couldn't I claim sleeplessness, dread, worry, anxiety, and get something prescribed for it, when there's actually nothing wrong with me?

That's why it worries me when I hear candidates talk about having Mental illnesses covered by insurance just like physical illnesses - not all mental illnesses can be proved, right?

And for some people, I do believe that there is more than a physical issue for their depression, and they're just using pills to treat the symptoms.

Now this isn't aimed at anyone here - but my general feeling is thesedays people want a quick fix to everything. Feeling blue? Take a pill instead of working out your problems. Over 50% of marriages fail? Why? Doesn't seem people want to work on it. They just want everything to be good NOW.

I can't say I personally know anyone taking anything for depression, and also growing up I didn't encounter divorce. I have 11 sets of aunts and uncles, and not a single one is divorced.

So I'm wondering - is depression something that runs in the family? A factor of environment? Just imagined by some?

I'm interested in viewpoints without getting nasty.

[cujo0123]

It surprised me to find out how many people were depressed here too.

Some doctors do not do any tests but I had a number of tests done.

Some people do want everything to be good now. Part of being on medication is knowing that everyday will not be perfect. For me the medicine helps me deal with the everyday issues better. Without my medicine I could just start crying for no reason and it is not happy crying.

Doctors (a good one) should not prescribe the medication unless the patient has been depressed for a while. To be diagnosed properly a number of tests should be done and it is better to be diagnosed by a specialist.

Depression does run in families. Some of it is genetics. Environment can have something to do with it sometimes. Others of course can imagine it or any other ailment they choose.

The only reason not all mental ilness can be proved scientifically is because the mind is the least understood part of the human body. But lack of knowledge should not be a reason to deny those who need the treatment.

I hope that answers some questions. It is very difficult to understand if you have never felt clinical depression.


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[teraberry]

I'm not putting out my opinions here, just giving these links. If you want to read them you can, and if you don't just don't click on it.

This one is some facts about the drugs:
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This one is about children on them:
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This one adressed depression and the spiritual solution (must go half-way down the page:

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[Louann]

In my case, there is a history of depression in my family, but I was fine till I was in my late 30s, fell in love and got a broken heart. Then something in my brain got messed up, which I don't think is ever going to change back. Thank goodness for St John's Wort tho, since I never had to take prescription meds. I've tried stopping it at times when I was in really happy phases of life since then, so I know it's not just a placebo. Unfortunately, I had to restart, since especially during PMS times, I would start to cry for no reason. The slightest thing could get me started weeping, even if my job and relationships were fine. Maybe after menopause I will change again and not need any help in pill form.
And life would be a whole lot easier if there were definative tests. I have one friend who refuses meds because he says no doctor has ever diagnosed him with a problem, yet he was so suicidal for awhile that he was even saying God wanted him to kill himself. When a really religious person can twist the Bible around to make excuses for why it is OK to commit suicide, that is enough to convince me there is a chemical imbalance!!!


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[teraberry]

Louann - I think that there's tons of women who cry for no reason during PMS - do you think that we should all take something for it? Personally, I too feel like crying for no reason when I have PMS some months... when that happens I honestly think to myself "this is PMS - don't try to think of reasons to be down". And if my husband asks me 'is something wrong' I make sure I do not make a reason for my mood - I tell him that it's PMS. It is harder during that time to be caring to others if you are not conscious of it - it really takes some concentration. I try to get extra rest and take it easy and have my DH help out with the kids more. Anyway, I think doing this has built more character in me. I think it helps me to be better self-disciplined or self-controlled, to really think about why I act as I do, and be concious of loving my family.

If one is suicidal, I certainly would not say this person should not have anti-depressants, but I would hope that it would only be for a time and that there would be the hope of him getting off of them and working out his anxieties. What you wrote reminded me of Judas, who committed suicide after giving Jesus the kiss of betrayal before Jesus was crucified. I'm curious if you would say Judas was suicidal because he had a chemical imbalance.

[cashhound]

Any number of things can cause a chemical imbalance. There isn't hard proof that depression is genetic. Several studies have been done, but I think the medical community is still divided. I THINK. I'm no expert. One thing I know....whatever point anyone is trying to make, s/he can find an *authority* to back him/her up. And then I can turn around and find ANOTHER authority to dispute his/hers. One of the advantages (or disadvantages) to instant access on the internet.

The thing is, there are so many different TYPES of depression. Everyone exhibits different symptoms. Yes, some are common, but it seems there are one or two symptoms that seem to be more prominant...and those are NOT usually the same for everyone. The symptoms are usually vague, which makes it difficult to diagnose. Usually. I know there are many cases where it is very clearcut. But I think there are many more where it isn't so clear.

It is important to see a mental health care professional for at least follow up. That is my opinion. There are so many different and new ways to treat depression, and the mental health community GENERALLY stays on top of it more closely than a GP.

I think one of the things that bothers me about a lot of what I read last night is the lumping of depression along with *other* mental illnesses. Depression is nothing like schizophrenia, for example. Or phobias...or any of the thousands of other mental illnesses. Doctors can test seratonin levels. They can also check brain waves. They don't always have tests that can prove other illnesses. But, to be fair, what a lot of people think of as "physical" illnesses can't be proven with a test either. There are a lot of testing procedures that indicate a physical illness, but I think we all can think of one or two stories we've seen or heard where someone was misdiagnosed.

I don't mean to offend anyone with my next statement, so please don't take it personally. It concerns things I've heard everywhere...not just on this board...k? It has to do with the perception that social issues or values are leading contributers to depression. This is something I simply cannot agree with. I think as we become more informed and more willing to learn, we see more and more people going to their doctors when they don't feel right. I think in the past, there was such a stigma placed on people who had ANY type of mental issues that they chose to ignore them rather than get treated. To me, it is like the stigma on divorce. People would rather stay in a bad marriage than admit things just were NOT going to work out.

Having said all of that, I will backtrack a bit and say that I do believe in some cases there are environmental factors leading to depression. When a child hears all day every day how worthless and awful s/he is, I believe it DOES affect seratonin levels. In those types of cases, I believe councelling should go hand in hand with chemical treatment.

I admire anyone who has the courage to admit they aren't perfect and can go get help. For many people, this is probably the hardest step. It's sad that after they finally get to the point where they have to do something, that our society STILL wants to tell them they are weak...that THEY have done something wrong to need this chemical assistance. To me, it's like saying alcoholism is a weakness rather than a physical illness. An alcoholic has a physical bad reaction to alcohol, and for that reason should abstain. But not everyone has that same reaction. Some people can indulge whenever and however much they'd like with no ill effects.

And, finally, although it may seem like there's a lot of people here who are taking antidepressants, we have to remember that in the broad scope of things, we really are a small community. A small community of folks who share quite a bit of personal information that we normally wouldn't share with just anyone. I can't imagine any of the people here walking into a crowded room of strangers and announcing they wanted more information on depression. But that's why I love these boards...we have the opportunity to LEARN and ASK without being embarrassed. And, hopefully, getting answers without getting attacked or belittled.

[Louann]

[quote]Originally posted by teraberry
[b]Louann - I think that there's tons of women who cry for no reason during PMS - do you think that we should all take something for it? Personally, I too feel like crying for no reason when I have PMS some months... when that happens I honestly think to myself "this is PMS - don't try to think of reasons to be down". And if my husband asks me 'is something wrong' I make sure I do not make a reason for my mood - I tell him that it's PMS. It is harder during that time to be caring to others if you are not conscious of it - it really takes some concentration. I try to get extra rest and take it easy and have my DH help out with the kids more. Anyway, I think doing this has built more character in me. I think it helps me to be better self-disciplined or self-controlled, to really think about why I act as I do, and be concious of loving my family.

If one is suicidal, I certainly would not say this person should not have anti-depressants, but I would hope that it would only be for a time and that there would be the hope of him getting off of them and working out his anxieties. What you wrote reminded me of Judas, who committed suicide after giving Jesus the kiss of betrayal before Jesus was crucified. I'm curious if you would say Judas was suicidal because he had a chemical imbalance. "

Women who can't understand what it feels like to be depressed, but who have had the crying jags during PMS, can then understand how depressed people feel. There is a hormonal reason. It helps to be able to handle it if you know it is caused by PMS or clinical depression, and Yes, you can be strong and fight it off, but the big problem is when people don't understand that it is something in their brain causing them to feel badly, and they may go to lengths like suicide when a simple pill will help them feel better. And that's also why some people need therapy along with the meds, to help them realize what made the depression start, and how to maybe handle it without drugs.
Judas had a reason to want to kill himself after what he had done. That is totally nothing like my friend and others who just FEEL people and life are against them and they want to get away from their alleged persecuters and the torment of a life of darkness and unhappiness that is really just in their mind.


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[cashhound]

Originally posted by teraberry
I think it helps me to be better self-disciplined or self-controlled, to really think about why I act as I do, and be concious of loving my family.

This statement implies that you think people who take something for their moods or whatever AREN'T self-disciplined or have no self control. Again, it IMPLIES. Surely that isn't what you meant to insinuate, because I'm fairly sure you are a caring person who wouldn't purposely hurt somebody's feelings.

If one is suicidal, I certainly would not say this person should not have anti-depressants, but I would hope that it would only be for a time and that there would be the hope of him getting off of them and working out his anxieties. What you wrote reminded me of Judas, who committed suicide after giving Jesus the kiss of betrayal before Jesus was crucified. I'm curious if you would say Judas was suicidal because he had a chemical imbalance.

Since Shainie and others have expressed a desire to NOT have this turn into the debate it turned into last night, perhaps this type of religious discussion would be better on another board somewhere. Those of us that survived the previous relgious upheaval here REALLY don't want to see a repeat. It was bad. Really bad. Thanks for your patience teraberry



edit: Sorry...I wrote ShainA instead of ShainIE.


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[teraberry]

To be clear I think there are two groups of people who take anti-depressants and such for their moods...
1. those who need them
2. those who do not

I don't think any of us would say that everyone who is taking anti-depressants for their moods is taking them rightly and really does have a physical problem. Nor do I think any of us would say that nobody needs them.

The real question is how many people out there who are on anti-depressants really need them because they were born with a physical problem out of their own control, that predisposed them to depression, and how many out there are on them because they something externally happened to them (like a death in the family or divorce) and their depression could be worked out without a lifetime of anti-depressants.

I just think it may be the case that too many people out there are dependent on these drugs for life pretty much, when in the end they would be happier if they were instead weaned off the drugs while getting council and support, hopefully love from others, and such. I think this could be the case, but unfortunately for most who may be able to get off the drugs they do not have a true source of support and love that would help them.

Again, I do think there are those who do have a physical problem and they need the medication. I just think that this case is the exception rather than the rule.

I think especially in the case with children it is a mistake to be so quick to put them on anti-depressants. I see so many parents in stores or at the park who are down right mean to their kids. I hear of all the cases of abuse in homes. And just think of all that goes on behind closed doors that we do not know. These poor children! It is no wonder they do not show normal behavior and are depressed! These kids do not need drugs - they need love! For those cases where kids are depressed who have had great home lives and loving discipline - that's a different story.

[Shainie]

Originally posted by cashhound

edit: Sorry...I wrote ShainA instead of ShainIE.

I think a lot of people think we're the same person. Hehe

Thanks for the insight so far. PLEASE let's not turn this into a religious spit-fest. I respect your opinions Teraberry, and we read last night your views on depression and spirituality, so lets give others a chance to voice their opinions instead of debate yours.

I guess unless I walk in your shoes, I may never know depression. I can't help but think still, that the pill is treating the symtoms at times, and not the real problem.

Like you step on a nail and go to the doctor for the pain, and instead of removing the nail, he puts you on a life-time of pain killers. Sure, your senses are deadened to the pain, but you haven't gotten to the root of the problem. Like saying "Sure, we can cure what ails me, but lets just make it go away by making me oblivious to the problem".

On to divorce - I don't think people should stay in a bad marriage, but what marriage is problem-free? And what about the people who divorce within a year? How do they even know the marriage is bad yet? I just feel so bad for the kids of these marriages. I think part of the reason I hold the institution of marriage so high is because I was raised in a family that did the same. And I want to do the same for my children. If divorce is a foreign thing to them, and a loving relationship with open communication is the norm, then I hope their lives will follow the same path.

No, I'm not perfect, and no, our marriage isn't perfect either. But we TRY our hardest to work out any snags. I feel fortunate to have everything feel right in the universe. LOL


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[Shainie]

Originally posted by teraberry

I think especially in the case with children it is a mistake to be so quick to put them on anti-depressants. I see so many parents in stores or at the park who are down right mean to their kids. I hear of all the cases of abuse in homes. And just think of all that goes on behind closed doors that we do not know. These poor children! It is no wonder they do not show normal behavior and are depressed! These kids do not need drugs - they need love! For those cases where kids are depressed who have had great home lives and loving discipline - that's a different story.

Unfortunately this is part of the "mental illness" epidemic. Children who are unloved become adults who do not know how to give or receive love, many times giving birth to children, never giving them the basic emotional needs.

It's a cycle that will not end any time soon.


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[nrages]

Originally posted by Shainie



I guess unless I walk in your shoes, I may never know depression. I can't help but think still, that the pill is treating the symtoms at times, and not the real problem.

Like you step on a nail and go to the doctor for the pain, and instead of removing the nail, he puts you on a life-time of pain killers. Sure, your senses are deadened to the pain, but you haven't gotten to the root of the problem. Like saying "Sure, we can cure what ails me, but lets just make it go away by making me oblivious to the problem".


[/size]

Very valid point. However, the main issue with depression, drugs, and the brain, is that not enough is known about the brain to be able to cure depression right away with drugs. Depression is caused by chemical imbalances and it would be wonderful if there was a drug that could just balance those chemicals right away. Maybe one day there will be such a drug.

Also with depression and drugs, from my understanding, you should be undergoing counseling while taking the drugs, to help you to focus on what you can do to eliminate depression. I was on Prozac for only a month (because I found out I was pregnant and had to stop), so I don't know what it is like to be on the drugs long term. But I do know that they kept stressing counseling and what steps I could make on my own (in addition to drugs and/or without), to help me be not depressed.


However, I am very happy that you are concerned about depression and want to learn more. One of the horrible things about being depressed is that you feel all alone because no one truly understands what you are going through. But since you know more about it while never experiencing it, you will be able to understand a depressive person more than the average person would.

[Mouse7088]

After the last thread, I was discussing the topic with Kenny...I haven't done a lot of research other than the meds, symptoms and the like, but I do have a question...why does the whole issue of depression fall more toward women and not men also. I know Verleen posted about her hubby, but for his one experience I have heard at least 100 more from women...does that make sense? Is it just the deal where most men don't discuss it? Ignore it? I know women have a lot of stress involved in daily living, BUT when you're talking of a chemical imbalance versus stress....shouldn't we hear of more men suffering of the same?!?!?!

[tlspiegel]

Read the entrie article here...

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Depression Affects Men Differently Than Women

By Denise Mann
WebMD Medical News

"Oct. 10, 2000 -- Henry gets so agitated in traffic that his face turns red and he punches the steering wheel.

Marc comes home from a hard day's work and drinks a six-pack of Budweiser -- every night.

Ken, who has been on disability for six months, watches television all day long, barely speaking to anyone.

Bill smokes more marijuana now than he did when he was in high school 20 years ago.

What these men have in common was once thought of as almost exclusively a women's problem, but depression affects both sexes. It can just manifest itself differently in men, according to a California psychologist and author. While women may cry, become withdrawn, and gain or lose weight, men may abuse alcohol or drugs, work or eat excessively, and/or become violent to themselves or others, among other things.

Affecting approximately 19 million Americans, depression clearly takes its toll on both sexes. The toll is physical as well as mental: A recent study of Johns Hopkins medical students found that depressed men were twice as likely as their nondepressed counterparts to develop heart disease or die suddenly because of heart problems. "


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[nrages]

Originally posted by tlspiegel
Read the entrie article here...

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Depression Affects Men Differently Than Women...

Thank you so much for this! My brother is clinically depressed...not diagnosed because he will not get help. I am going to forward this article because I am very concerned with his health. He is already overweight, so we all are concerned with him having heart problems later in life. I hope he will actually read this article. There is only so much I can do...the rest is up to him.


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