Speed limits - Pro or Con?

[tracissavings]

I couldn't resist Jeskibuff LOL ...

We already know I drive the speed limit - Please give me a reason to speed!

::: Wanting to be a speed demon:::::

[jeskibuff]

I can hardly wait! But I must, for I'm rather busy right now. Look for my first diatribe on this issue a little later in the day.

[3tbear]

I don't normally speed, well, at least not like most of those people out there on the highways flying past me doing 80mph+. I use cruise control and haven't had any problems, as long as I adhere to that.

[Mouse7088]

Hmmmm...I think having speed limits is a good thing. I mean, it does give a sort of limitation to abide by. Kind of like being a teen with a curfew..we all need limits of some sort in our daily routine. I couldn't trust everyone to use their own good judgement, if everyone knew how to do that then there wouldn't be people driving under the influence.
I would personally like to see more tickets given to those people who decide a speed limit of 45 is acceptable in a 65 area...or even 55 for that matter if weather permits it. I think ppl. who go far too slow or too fast are danger to themself and others. I live on a very busy highway, in boonieville, but still very busy. It's pretty "curvy" so when you get behind a driver going slow it's very difficult to pass safely..then of course I am one of those people who will not take "a chance" just to get around them and when I go to turn in my drive I am the one who's heart is about ready to pop out of my chest. I have almost been slammed into because ppl. are following to closely or they think I am about pass the person in front of me and swing into the left lane also causing me to almost run over my own mailbox just as so I can get out of the way...ugh!
I don't get too bugged when it's a major highway really...if I choose to drive at the posted speed limit, then ppl. can normally go around me without problem and the same for me, I can pass them also.
I'm not saying I have never gone over the speed limit...I have. I start feeling less in control when I notice I am 5 mph over. I don't like that feeling, so I do my best to pay attention to the speedometer.


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[jeskibuff]

Well, I meant to reply to this a while ago, but I keep deferring. There's a lot to be written about this and to me, each piece fits together to form a 'master plan' on how we could make our commutes much better, save gas, eliminate road rage, etc. I want to someday put together a web page that will interconnect all of these "pieces", but the time never seems to be available. Maybe I can present a chunk at a time here, take some responses and criticisms and build a cohesive website from the results. I know a lot of my ideas will go against what many of you have been taught to believe, but I believe they are rooted in good science and logical analysis. I have given enormous thought to our traffic problems, and should you find the conclusions heretical to your own beliefs, please respond with your opposition rather than remaining silent. So here goes "installment #1", which isn't in any particular hierarchy of importance, again, just one piece of the puzzle.

The need for speed (introduction).

As a person who admits to breaking our speed limits on a daily basis, usually by a larger margin than most other drivers, you'll probably hit me with the usual questions:
Why are you in such a hurry?
Don't you know that speed kills?
Don't you realize that you're endangering the lives of other drivers?
Do you enjoy paying high insurance premiums?

Let's start by answering these questions:
#1) I don't speed because I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. I speed for my own personal safety
#2) Yes, physics prove that a collision involving 2 vehicles will be progressively more deadlier as the relative speed of the collision increases. I won't deny that truth. There are other factors to measure, however. We will get to those eventually.
#3) I have driven fast (usually in high-performance sports cars - Mazda RX-7, Porsche 944, BMW 325i and currently BMW M3) for many, many years. My accident record is sterling - I have had none, excepting during my first couple of years behind the wheel. I have caused no accidents and been involved in no accidents. If my fast driving makes me a danger to others, please tell me how. OK...there IS one incident I must 'fess up to. Around 1983, while driving a rented Chrysler "K" car near Breckenridge, Colorado, a Lincoln Town Car came around a curve on an icy road. He couldn't keep that overweight hunk of metal parts in his lane, so he crossed into mine and we hit head-on at a combined speed of not more than 5 MPH. The cheapo "K" car was damaged a little, and his insurance company got the tab. There was not much I could do to avoid that collision, aside from steering into a ditch (which would have done MORE damage). There is another such minor incident that I will disclose if you'd like me to bore you with such detail.
#4) My insurance company LOVES me. I've had them for many years and they get very few claims from me and consistent on-time payment of premiums. The rate I have paid in the 5 years I've had my current 240-HP car has been under $600 per year for full coverage! I am a single male, getting on average one speeding ticket per year. I keep my deductibles on the high side ($1000 for collision, the same for comprehensive) because it keeps my rates low and I rarely have claims. My current annual premium is $555, I believe.

Claim history:
Jan. 2000 - Current BMW gets hit while parked in parking lot by backhoe while clearing snow from lot (bozos!). Their insurance company paid for the repairs.
1996? - Prior car had cracked windshield replaced
1987? - Porsche 944 gets hit in rear quarter panel in Red Lobster parking lot while I dined. Perpetrator leaves scene of the crime, leaves no note.
1984? - Porsche 944 gets hood and front fender damage from road debris that seemed to come from nowhere (nuts and bolts thrown from window of garbage truck in adjacent lane?)

Almost everyone in this nation claims they are a "good" driver. Rarely do you ever hear someone claim they are a bad driver. Yet when I am on the roads, I see hundreds of bad drivers. They probably look at me making a lane change or violating the speed limit and say that I'm the bad driver. Who is right and who is wrong?

Well, I will obviously claim that I am the good driver, and will defer to my excellent driving history and 'safe driver' endorsement on my insurance premium as proof. The history is not accidental (no pun intended). My driving habits are based on enhanced defensive driving techniques. They were "enhanced" through the power of highly scientific observation, available to everybody, which I will share here. Scientific conclusions are based on repeatable phenomena, but the science of driving revolves around human behaviour, an element that will not provide exact repeatable results each time it is tested. When you put on your turn signal, how will the other driver respond? Will he back off and let you change lanes, or will he speed up to close the gap?


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[jeskibuff]

I contend that speeding is safer than following the posted speed limits. Here's why:

1) Posted speed limits are set deliberately low
2) In most parts of congested America, there is a lot more road than there are cars to travel it

Let's take a close look at reason #1. If you ask any knowledgable traffic engineer, you'll find there is something called the "85th percentile rule". This rule simply states that on a given road, in given conditions (rain, snow, etc), 85 percent of drivers on that road will choose the proper speed for that road. 15 percent of the drivers will drive above or below that speed. If a speed limit is to be set for the road, it should have been based upon that rule.

Anybody travelling our highways nowadays can see that speed limits are consistently violated en masse. Most EVERYBODY is a scofflaw and thinks the speed limits are too low. Why is it set so low? I firmly believe that this is done for revenue generation for government coffers. The government is very inept at most everything, except when it comes to collecting revenues. It is VERY efficient at this task.

What dangers exist from limits set too low? There are MANY. First and foremost, road capacity is reduced. Like water through a clogged drain, when a volume of cars is restricted from normal flow, the road gets backed up and traffic jams occur. Congestion results and the bad effects are many: stop-and-go traffic gives you horrific gas mileage and unnecessary wear and tear on braking systems. Loss of valuable time impacts business and personal duties. Flaring tempers produce road rage and anger which gets carried to home or work, negatively affecting others. Vehicles travelling in close proximity to each other greatly improve the odds of having an accident, as brakes applied suddenly, lanes changed abruptly or road debris appearing suddenly offer a tiny window of time in which one can respond. Even if EVERYBODY were travelling above the speed limit, the unexpected appearance of a police cruiser in the median results in the sudden application of brakes with little regard to the proximity of the vehicle immediately behind. We've all seen it happen.

With congested roads, people complain to their government to fix the problem. "Fixing it" is usually done with tunnel-vision: build more roads. This is extremely costly to the taxpayer. Why not use the roads we have now to their greatest efficiency and defer building as long as possible?
For most roads in America that I have travelled, I notice what I call the "cluster" principle. Cars will usually clump or cluster together while travelling, offering congestion within the travelling clump. Ahead and behind the cluster, there are vast stretches of road with few if any cars on them. These clusters are the beginnings of congestion and the real danger on our highways.

When I'm in a cluster, I am rightfully paranoid. Here are 3000-lb cars travelling together at 60 MPH and any number of things can happen. Someone can change lanes without looking. Someone can have a tire blow out or spin on a patch of ice. The car ahead of me can kick up a piece of road debris and hurl it at my windshield. People have been impaled through their heads by flying steel rebar! I have much less time to respond to an emergency condition and I have few to no escape routes while caught in a cluster. So let me get by! Stop policing the left lane!. You can choose to obey the speed limit and subject yourself to these dangers. I will be in the open area ahead, with no one in front, no one behind and no one by my side. I will have oodles of time to see a hazard and respond to it. I will have the maximum number of escape options. I will be safer as I violate the speed limit than you will be as you obey it.

Another problem with low speed limits is that people will tend to ignore the signs. Signs are ideally intended to inform us of dangers so that we can adjust properly to conditions. If the value of the sign has been made insignificant because people realize there is NO danger when travelling ABOVE the speed limit, they will assume that the credibility of OTHER road signs is also in question. The law gets no respect, because it DESERVES no respect!

I was amazed one time while driving the autobahns in West Germany (1985). As I was travelling this road that had no speed limit, I would come across some stretches where speed limits WERE posted. Usually it was a small curvy section where a 100kph (62 MPH) limit was posted. Without the presence of police cruisers, drivers would PROMPTLY obey the posted limit by reducing their speeds. They RESPECTED the limit and viewed it as beneficial to their driving safety, so they obeyed it! Isn't the way it should be?

When the Clinton administration relaxed the national speed limit laws in 1995?, many people were wailing, saying that there would soon be bloodshed nationwide on our highways. The reverse happened. Faster speeds resulted in lower death rates. The reasons for this were many, including removing the boredom of driving 55 MPH over long stretches. Here's a quote from a 1992 US DOT report: "Accidents ... where speed limits were lowered increased by 5.4 percent." See [Only registered and activated users can see links. Either login above or Register Now]

There are many things that can be done to improve traffic safety. It needs to involve many different components: changing speed laws, licensing procedures, education. The greatest hazards we have now are inattention and lack of courtesy. People are eating, talking on their cell phones, looking and fiddling with their children (in the back seats), petting their dogs who are sprawled between them and the wheel, putting on make-up, shaving, conversing with passengers (not watching the road).

People don't seem to have the courtesy of staying in the rightmost lanes except when passing. They don't care to change to another lane to allow traffic to merge. These things need to change.

Faster speeds are not the problem - they are part of the solution. Our focus should be on the things that cause the accidents, cause daily delays, cost enormous amounts of taxes and cost us in gas mileage and vehicle wear. By the way, a car going 80 MPH will get better gas mileage than one that accelerates to 50 MPH, brakes suddenly to 20 MPH and reaccelerates, repeating the cycle over several miles.


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[mayfly]

Mouse- this is so sad, but to funny thinking of the narrow misses your poor mail box has had!

[telos2000]

Pro - except when going with the flow of traffic!

[ladey_hawke]

I'm con- I agree with many of the points that jeskibuff makes.
I have always found it fascinating that our country has the most traffic laws of any country and also the most accidents. I speed, though moderately 5-10 mph over the limit, but I also stay away from clumps of other cars so that I can react faster and more appropriately to unusual circumstances. I live right of of 41-A in KY-TN which is one of the most dangerous highways in the country with a posted speed limit of 45. It is 3 lanes each direction with a center left turn lane (brilliant, huh?) And on that road, the faster you go, the safer you are. The most dangerous times are when there's a big group of dopes doing the speed limit. JMO!

[jen6889]

In a lot of cases, it's necessary to speed or you'll get run off the road! Seriously! I avoid driving on the Interstate at certain times of the day just to avoid having to drive 80 mph or more. It's scary having people flying by you in all lanes and then having this big Truck come up behind you looking like they are not slowing down. Cases like that, if you don't speed up you may end up in the hospital...

I think the speed limits are necessary only because there are so many complete idiots out there. People with common sense would never drive faster than they thought safe. Yep, like me. I am a speeder. I confess. But I NEVER drive faster than what I consider safe. I slow down for corners, I drive slower at night (too dark to see what might jump out in the road - like deer), never speed though residental areas and I never follow too closely or "weave in and out". And when it takes more effort to keep the wheel steady, you're driving too fast. In my van, that's usually around 80 mph (which I rarely drive).

By the way, I have a *PERFECT* driving record. Seriously. I got one ticket for a broken headlight (which I was unaware of and since it was fixed, the judge dropped it), one speeding ticket 6 years ago, and two accidents, one was never reported and neither was my fault. #1 was some kid who just got his license and he ran a red light at about 75mph (in a 35mph zone. I was actually doing the speed limit at that time). #2 was some idiotic "Holier than thou" lady who ran into the back of me at a Red light when she tried to go when light changed for the left turn lane only. She tried to blame it all on me and accused me of being a racist. WHATEVER!! (and Just for the record, I am NOT a racist.) She also said she was going to sue me for the damage *I* caused to her car. I wasn't rude to her, I didn't yell. I just sat there and laughed at her (you should have heard her carrying on! Anyone who heard her was probably on the verge of peeing in their pants! She was hilarious!) and told her since there was no damage to myself or my car I wouldn't press charges, I was late for work and I left. That was also 6 years ago and I never heard anything back from her.


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[sweetiris]

Originally posted by Mouse7088
I would personally like to see more tickets given to those people who decide a speed limit of 45 is acceptable in a 65 area...or even 55 for that matter if weather permits it. I think ppl. who go far too slow or too fast are danger to themself and others. [/SIZE]

They sooooo need to give them to people who go to slow! I get on 220 and someone's doing 35 when it's 55 speed limit. Of course I'm annoyed by this, but what really annoys me is the person driving behind me. They always get on my bumper because they are annoyed at the car going so slow. I can't do a thing about the car going so slow (okay, usually you can't do anything about it, there have been a couple of times where I just lost it and layed down on the horn when the person started dropping below 35). The road is always so busy that you can't ever pass in the morning. They want me to get on that cars bumper so maybe that car will go faster.
I get put in danger of the idiot slamming me from behind just because of the other idiot that can't seem to comprehend that 35 is NOT an acceptable speed limit on that road!!!!

Jeskibuff-boy did you type a lot! Didn't read,but will be back to later. My three hours of sleep last night just isn't enough for me to read that long post and understand it.

[jeskibuff]

Just what is a "left-lane bandit"? It is any motorist who drives in the leftmost lanes of a highway, oblivious to other drivers around him/her.

Left-lane bandits are one of the worst problems on our highways. They are largely responsible for traffic congestion, accidents and road rage. When you see someone changing lanes recklessly, chances are, you'll see that they were just trying to get beyond the congestion caused by left-lane bandits. One problem causes another problem.

There are many reasons why people choose to get in the left lane and "steal" it.
1) They are uncomfortable with changing lanes, and figure that if they drive in the left lane(s), they won't have to deal with merging traffic, which usually occurs in the rightmost lanes.
2) They figure that they drive at or slightly above the speed limit, so no one else should have to drive faster than them.
3) They don't understand the concept of "slower traffic, keep right". That rule of the road serves a purpose, and if obeyed, would greatly reduce the daily congestion on our roads.

I'm sure there are be more reasons, I just can't think of any others right now.

Let's examine #1, which I believe is the most prevalent. It is a combination of laziness and fear. It is laziness if you think that you are exempt from paying attention while driving. You park yourself in one lane and stay in it until it's time to exit the highway. It is fear if you are afraid of changing lanes. Fear is largely a function of vehicle design with regard to maneuverability and outward visibility. Many vehicles (predominantly American makes) have ridiculously soft suspensions intended to provide a "silky-smooth luxury ride". Such suspensions may be good for smoothing out bumpy pavement, but by disconnecting the wheels from the body, take all confidence out of what should be a simple task of changing directions. In a recent letter-to-the-editor in Car & Driver, a family refers to their Chevy Tahoe? (with the AutoRide system) as "the drunken cow" because of its sloppy and downright scary suspension. Visibility comes into play when a car is designed with huge blind spots, such as extraordinarily wide "C" pillars. Look at the size of them on this Cadillac ("C" pillars join the rear of the roof to the body):


Regarding #2, the haughty driver believes that they are king of the road and by dominating the left lane, they are in a position of power and control. They get to police the left lane without having to carry a badge. They refuse to move over, despite drivers behind them flashing their lights and signals or blazing their high beams at night. By their logic, they're doing the speed limit and NO ONE should be going faster than them. Such pride deserves a ticket with a nice fine. Their bull-headed behavior is dangerous and detrimental to good traffic flow.

As to excuse #3, some drivers just don't know any better. It is way too easy in the U.S. to get a driver's license and usually only requires you to pass some elemental vision and sign recognition tests. There are no lessons given in courtesy. As I stated before, road signs go largely ignored, so "Slower Traffic Keep Right" is just a meaningless collection of black letters on a white background. Solution: stricter licensing procedures and better driver education.

If you do any of these things or are being passed on your right side, you are a "left-lane bandit" and are a root cause of traffic problems. Do yourself and your fellow drivers a favor and just keep to the right, except to pass. As a result, there will be less congestion and fewer angry drivers, lessening the opportunity for cases of "road rage" to develop. There'll be no one riding dangerously on your rear bumper and you'll have much more road available for emergency maneuvers. Leave the task of controlling highway speeds to the police - you have NOT been deputized! If a driver blows by you at 90 MPH, he'll soon be out of your sight and you won't have to deal with him. Why put up with him tailgating you or irritating your vision with his brights in your mirrors? Make your life easier, NOT harder. Make it a habit to pull to the right soon after passing. If you're afraid to change lanes, think about buying a better vehicle - one more adept at the important task of driving and not one that only excels in coddling overstuffed hind ends.


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[cutie_pie]

Originally posted by sweetiris


They sooooo need to give them to people who go to slow! I get on 220 and someone's doing 35 when it's 55 speed limit. Of course I'm annoyed by this, but what really annoys me is the person driving behind me. They always get on my bumper because they are annoyed at the car going so slow. I can't do a thing about the car going so slow (okay, usually you can't do anything about it, there have been a couple of times where I just lost it and layed down on the horn when the person started dropping below 35). The road is always so busy that you can't ever pass in the morning. They want me to get on that cars bumper so maybe that car will go faster.
I get put in danger of the idiot slamming me from behind just because of the other idiot that can't seem to comprehend that 35 is NOT an acceptable speed limit on that road!!!!

That is sooooooo irritating, not to mention dangerous, when you get stuck in between a slow-poke and an impatient person. I too refuse to get too close for fear that the person in front will put on the brakes.

Luckily, most people in this area will pull off to let faster moving traffic pass.

[3tbear]

When I was in Germany one of our friends was driving, I think he was going around 120 mph on the Autobahn. No speed limits there. We were just hanging on! I've never gone that fast anywhere!